Thursday, December 22, 2011

Last and First Men of Mars

We thought what we thought back then.

Thomas Friedman wrote another column about Iraq this week.

 In it he said this:
Iraq was always a war of choice. As I never bought the argument that Saddam had nukes that had to be taken out, the decision to go to war stemmed, for me, from a different choice: Could we collaborate with the people of Iraq to change the political trajectory of this pivotal state in the heart of the Arab world and help tilt it and the region onto a democratizing track?  
 ...But was it a wise choice?  
My answer is twofold: “No” and “Maybe, sort of, we’ll see.”  
I say “no” because whatever happens in Iraq, even if it becomes Switzerland, we overpaid for it. And, for that, I have nothing but regrets. We overpaid in lives, in the wounded, in tarnished values, in dollars and in the lost focus on America’s development. Iraqis, of course, paid dearly as well.
... 

Like so much of what Arthur Ochs Sulzberger, Jr. lets his pal Tom Friedman shovel into the pages of


his New York Times, this is just another load of Friedman's arrant revisionist bullshit.

But it is also in pretty execrable taste for Arthur Ochs Sulzberger, Jr. to let his Neocon pal use the word "we" when listing the butcher's bill for Friedman's catastrophic game of Risk-with-real-humans, given the fact that the Iraqi Debacle has cost Tom Friedman exactly nothing.

Not even the privilege of lying about it with impunity in the pages of America's newspaper of record.

Mr. Friedman added this:
 So no matter the original reasons for the war, in the end, it came down to this: Were America and its Iraqi allies going to defeat Al Qaeda and its allies in the heart of the Arab world or were Al Qaeda and its allies going to defeat them?
Mr. Friedman can do this over and over again, year after year -- compact this kind of raw, jaw-dropping dishonesty into sentences and then string them together on teevee or in publications like the New York Times -- because people like Mr. Friedman are never, ever held to account for the terrible things they say and do.

And speaking of unaccountable New York Times Neoconservative frauds who are still allowed by Arthur Ochs Sulzberger, Jr. to run barefoot through the pages of his newspaper for no explicable reason...


  QUEENBOBO_SM

 David Brooks had this to say about Iraq last week on "The News Hour":
Yeah, I don't know whether Iraq was worth it. The cost was obviously high in lives, treasure and national morale. But we have this -- we're left with this thing. 
... 
And now we have a moment of turmoil. We don't know this turmoil -- it could be worse, it could be better. But it's a moment of turmoil. I think the Iraq war and the deposition of Saddam Hussein was part of the things that encouraged, instigated the turmoil. 
...
It's very messy, very complicated. But, in 100 years or in 50 years, we will look back and see where the turmoil went and maybe we will have a better sense of how the Iraqi elections, getting rid of Saddam, getting rid of the Taliban helped lead to maybe getting rid of Mubarak, Gadhafi and all the rest.  

Again, this "we" nonsense.

Again, this special pleading of the Neoconservative to stretch of the timeline of judgment out to a distance of hundreds or thousands of Friedman Units.  "Let enough decades pass," Mr. Brooks argues.  "Let the continents shift and magnetic poles reverse.  Then and only then -- long after I am gone and my lies are long forgotten -- should we submit my blood-soaked bullshit to history for judgement."

And when Mark Shields dropped a little truth on his pointy head?

MARK SHIELDS: It's a terrible, terrible policy to go to war, the most serious decision a country can make, with absolutely no justification. I mean, let's be very blunt about it. Al-Qaida was responsible for 9/11. Iraq had nothing to do with it. Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction and no ability or capacity to deliver those weapons that were nonexistent.

JIM LEHRER: And you don't dispute that, David?  
 DAVID BROOKS: No. Well, we obviously thought what we thought back then. But I always thought that the need to disrupt the Middle East was one of the reasons why it was necessary.
Of course, David Brooks' views on the Iraqi Debacle during and immediately after the invasion -- and his contempt for anyone who doubted the nobility and wisdom of George W. Bush -- are well-document all over the internets.

Needless to say they bear almost no relationship to what he now asserts his views

 As for myself, I still think now exactly what I thought back then:
There is a Club.
You are not in it.

37 comments:

knowdoubt said...

Friedman characterizes, in the first paragraph, that going to war against a country thusly,

"Could we collaborate with the people of Iraq to..."

you know "change the political trajectory" I'm sorry, I had trouble getting beyond that point - my eyes just inexplicably glazed over.

blackdaug said...

I really love how, as all their excuses have turned to shit, they fall back on the fighting al Queda in Iraq (even though they weren't there when we went in)and oh isn't the world a better place without Sadam? (even though we just saw what would have happened to Sadam happen in Libya, minus..you know all the carnage, lives and treasure). Revisionism doesn't come close to describing the utter bullshit these millionaires practice for good money as "chroniclers of our time". Dante must have had a special circle for these mealy mouthed bastards. Maybe doomed to have their mouths fill with blood every time they completely contradict or attempt to justify their earlier war mongering stupidity.

Cirze said...

I would settle for their mouths filling with blood (and it being present literally) every time they opened them from now on.

But who with good sense wouldn't?

That is unless your "good" sense fills your wallet with neoCon-waged wars for resource control.

Hope you don't mind if I quote you at length at my site, Dg.

Brilliantly catalogued.

Kudos!

S

Chicago Guy said...

When Mark Shield's dropped that stunningly clear bit of truth---I stood up and started applauding.

Stephen A said...

I've always found that "collaborate" and "suck on this" to have a slightly different meaning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwFaSpca_3Q

chrome agnomen said...

the question left unresolved in my mind is which of those two i hate with the greater passion. there is no circle of hell low enough.

John said...

Shield's extremely RARE brush with "obviousity" notwithstanding: friends don't let friends be duped by PBS/NPR:
http://nprcheck.blogspot.com/

John Puma

Kathy said...

I like the idea of a magical transformation where from now on all neocons, pundits and conservatives will have to eat with their anus and shit thru their mouths.

"By their stink ye shall know them"

Anonymous said...

Just wondering: is there any country in that region that Mr. Mustache does not consider "pivotal"?

Ormond Otvos said...

"Disrupt the Middle East" is the key truth leak in this kabuki theatre.

Nine eleven pointedly reminded an entire government, not just the polity, that Islam itself as an institution is dangerous, historically and in the future.

It's getting clearer to me that disrupting Islam, making it a poor personal choice, AND encouraging secular government, are necessary.

There are all kinds of mushy arguments against this view, but realpolitik will hold up.

Blakenator said...

The "test of time" is a good one to illustrate to these clowns. Ask 'em "how'd Viet Nam turn out?" Amazingly, there are still those who think we should still be fighting that war.
BTW, Otvos, Islam is a religion that exists peacefully all over the world. There is no shortage of religious lunatics from virtually all "faiths." There are plenty of "good Christians" calling for killing them all as the "solution." I recommend you read Osama Bin Laden's original manifesto and you will see who really won. His goal was to cause the USofA to self-destruct and we are well on the way.

knowdoubt said...

What Blakenator said, I second.

Tom Allen said...

And yet, and yet ... how much do you want to bet that these same pundits will change their tune again tomorrow, being appalled at the carnage going on today in Iraq, and demand that the US send troops back in to quell the violence? And that Democrats and Republicans fall in party line once again to support them?

I know, it's a sucker's bet. But I need the money.

Ormond Otvos said...

Blake, I wish you'd read my comment again, and then respond to IT, not the box you put it in.

There's not much point in being specific if you don't follow the specificity.

My point, re Hitchens, is that there are far better religions than Islam, and that Islam, as practiced, whips up rage the same way nationalistic politicians do.

How many videos of mass demonstrations do you need to convince you?

It's an empty argument to say there are millions of peaceful Muslims. We're not talking about the peaceful ones, we're talking about the ones that disrupt civilizations they don't agree with, egged on by clerics who don't do the fighting.

JUST like the million, of three hundred million, who actually fought the wars in the MidEast. Only a third of a percent, right? Of course, I'm talking about OUR soldiers who carried out the wars.

You have, of course, some plan to change the language of the clerics?

Talk is one thing, but there's talk that incites rebellion. As a former ACLU board member, I'm familiar with the free speech aspects, but the world doesn't run on the first amendment.

Please raise the level of your argument. So far, this is boring.

Anonymous said...

"My point, re Hitchens, is that there are far better religions than Islam, and that Islam, as practiced, whips up rage the same way nationalistic politicians do."

Is somebody gonna take this..huh....?

"It's an empty argument to say there are millions of peaceful Muslims. We're not talking about the peaceful ones, we're talking about the ones that disrupt civilizations they don't agree with, egged on by clerics who don't do the fighting.

Really....anyone..ya gonna make me do this..??

Anonymous said...

"Please raise the level of your argument. So far, this is boring."


Seriously...its like a man with his legs spread begging to be kicked in the nuts....

Anonymous said...

"As a former ACLU board member, I'm familiar with the free speech aspects, but the world doesn't run on the first amendment."

Holy shit!! A former ACLU board member, deigning to let us know which religion is the bestest!!
Owwy my knees are hurt from genuflecting....

Now really, which message board on Stormfront whence did you come...

Ormond Otvos said...

You sound like a drunken barfly so far...

Got any substantive comments?

Care to post under your real name?

knowdoubt said...

Surely to God, Ormond Otvos is not a real name. If it is, you've got my sympathy there. "If you really were a former ACLU board member that helps explain my disappointment with them, that really is the most disturbing part of this.

Robert said...

I believe George W. Bush is a Christian.
It's an empty argument to say there are millions of peaceful Christians, but we're not talking about the peaceful ones, we're talking about the ones that disrupt civilizations they don't agree with, egged on by Christian politicians who don't do the fighting.
Religion of Peace, my ass.

Ormond Otvos said...

From the bar to the schoolyard. Nyah nyah!

Having a strange name prepares you for the world of the intellectually circumscribed, where any deviation from the groupthink is punished.

Of course you can stick any religion with nutcases in place of Islam, but we're talking appropriate responses to external threats, not some ideological purity test. Muslims are acting crazy, call the police. That would be the US, eh?

The ACLU is an ideological organization, for the purpose of preserving the constitutionality of the US government. It's not a practical one, especially in the face of corporate and judicial legislation.

Still no substantive argument, just ad hominem and jibes. I rest my case.

knowdoubt said...

Man, your case was dismissed along time ago.

Robert said...

OO,
If the point is separation of church and state, you're right on.
What is the appropriate response to the Christian movement to start unnecessary wars?

Ormond Otvos said...

Separation of church and governance is internal politics (assuming you're not, like me, anationistic).

My comments are about the necessity of guarding against existing theocracies with imperial ambitions, like the umma.

I think we've pretty much gotten over the hump with Christianity, considering the rising tide of secularism in Western Europe and the Americas.

The discussion began with Hitchens, and his justification of invading Iraq to break up the umma in the mideast, which has gone much farther now, with threats of Islamisation from Pakistan, Afghanistan, Egypt, and Turkey.

I expect further gunboat diplomacy as long as politics is practiced as religion in Muslim nations. You can get transcripts of some Friday sermons if you need verification of the mixing of church and state.

The problem is what happens to people like driftglass and you in such a state.

knowdoubt said...

And.. "what is the appropriate response to the Christian movement to start unnecessary wars?"

How about ...as long as politics is practiced as religion in CHRISTIAN nations. Just as accurate from my view point.

Ormond Otvos said...

As I said, we're pretty much over the hump on carrying out Crusades. I'm familiar with the level of crusading.

Compare it, however, with the level in the umma, and make your defense decisions accordingly.

Doug Lyons said...

Driftglass, I agree with your sentiments completely but I offer this bit of advice - your case is so much stronger when you cite a specific to support your claim. So instead of just saying that Brooks or Friedman are being hypocritical (etc.) give us a concrete example. More work I know, but far more convincing. Most of my conservative friends and coworkers will spout some platitude from Rush or Hannity but they never cite a specific. And I believe I've heard you complain about centrists who say "both sides do it" but never say who the analogous lefty is to counter the Santorum, Beck, or Gingrich.

RossK said...

Mr Lyons--

You're joking, right?

Right?

Sheesh.

.

Ormond Otvos said...

I see Lyons' point. A certain amount of DG tends to be automatic writing, albeit clever and colorful. It's also unedited, but who cares? Sometimes the mistakes are insight-triggering.

But it's redeemed by a wide historicity and deep understanding of human foibles.

But I seem to miss the leavening of occasional mild humor. Maybe there's a filter in place, or maybe it's just Stokely Carmichael's admonition that if you know what's going on and you're not angry, you're crazy...

Doug Lyons said...

It also matters if you believe you're speaking to a larger public and not just the choir. People are lazy readers and if they have to dive through your website to find the supporting evidence for your point, you've lost them.

knowdoubt said...

"you've lost them" You already lost me and I suspect everyone else. If you're so good why don't you do a site and write something beyond a few sentences or paragraph. Hell, I think everyone here going thru comments want to learn. Why don't YOU show us something. I'm always looking for good material to read, that stimulates the mind and that I learn something from. Give us a url and I'm sure everyone will check it out.

Anonymous said...

Wow. After reading the further meanderings of the "The Great and Powerful" Ormondo, I kind of feel bad for picking on him in the first place.
First the name calling, and then all the useless, pompous verbose semi-cryptic bullshit.
Read your own posts: It's called "delusions of grandeur" Ozmondia, put down the thesaurus and take it up with a mental health professional near you.

Ormond Otvos said...

I gather you have nothing to say, so you travel down the vituperation list. You're now on "you're crazy" to be followed by scorn.

Boring, and I mean that sincerely.

knowdoubt said...

I would be willing to contribute to the mental professional help, but there is no cure for intellectual dishonesty and I don't have it to waste.

Anonymous said...

....and the critics are in on "Ozomdos "Special" Rant"!

"Boring, and I mean that sincerely."
- Oxmano

"But I seem to miss the leavening of occasional mild humor."
- Orlando

"As I said, we're pretty much over the hump on carrying out Crusades.
- Oxymoron

"The problem is what happens to people like driftglass and you in such a state."
-Oranthal


"I think we've pretty much gotten over the hump with Christianity, considering the rising tide of secularism in Western Europe and the Americas."
- Ono You Di int

"From the bar to the schoolyard. Nyah nyah!"
- Oh no..it's me..Ormondo

"You sound like a drunken barfly so far.."
- O Pot, why call me black?

"....is that there are far better religions than Islam, and that Islam, as practiced, whips up rage the same way nationalistic politicians do,,,"

- Oh no..I just crapped my pants...

"...As a former ACLU board member, I'm familiar with the free speech aspects, but the world doesn't run on the first amendment.

"We have never heard of this moron...." - The ACLU

Ormond Otvos said...

Considering the source, some little pajama boy...

Anonymous said...

"some little pajama boy..."
My id can not contain itself...

- Ormondocite.