Tuesday, April 04, 2006

Attention Fundy Shoppers:


Bonfire in Aisle Two.


This will be the First and Last time I will ever defend anything to do with Wal-Mart, and I do it fully realizing that they’re probably punk out tomorrow.

Nonetheless…

So last night I’m lounging around the castle in my chaps and snuggle-socks watching the “Charlie Rose Show” (as I am occasionally wont to do) as guest interlocutor Bill Moyers interviews Daniel Dennett (Philosopher-at-large) about God and faith and atheism and all of that good stuff.

It was a wholly civil and reasonable discussion -- fully two-sided, since absent also were Rose’s long, discursive, middle-brow-soliloquies masquerading as questions (And don’t pretend you don’t know what I’m talking about!

Those vast, in-love-with-my-own-voice cantos of querielettes strung together with the phrase “in terms of”…that teasingly trail off after 16 or 18 minutes. And into whose momentary silences timid guests often venture a toe, only to have it lopped rhetorically off as Rose gathers himself for another aria masquerading as a question.
I swear, I have never heard any other talk show where the guest actually has to so often and forcibly interrupt the host just to wedge in an answer to a putative question that has, by now, been asked five different ways.

If you have never seen Himself on the teevee machine, imagine you have been buffaloed into shoe-shopping with a woman who is now deep into trying on seventeen virtually-identical pairs of black pumps, and after talking at length about the virtues of each successive choice, briefly pretends to ask your opinion after each fitting, and then flits away to wedge herself in to the next pair before the first syllable falls from your lips.

Like that, only with topics instead of stilettos.

Anyway)

They were having a perfectly amicable and interesting conversation about what “the American people” need to do about this and that. How sweet-sweet reason needs to be invoked and defended. How “we” must explain to the Fundies that it’s not nice or healthy or fair or democratic for them to try to force their beliefs down everyone else’s collective throat.

How they shouldn’ta, ought’na be allowed to play the “My God is infallible and can miracle anything into anything” card every time they get caught scamming and lying and passing their freakish ignorance and bigotry off as, well, “Gospel.”

And while I enjoyed the conversation – ever so much more so since I didn’t have to TiVo it and piece together the salient sentence fragment out of an ocean of Ponderous Rose Prose – I wondered, not to the first time, this:
Who in the fuck are you talking to?


With respect, you keep saying “we” and “they” as if “they” are going to wake up one day and realize that they are the problem. That Conservative Fundamentalism is the bone cancer of democracy. That people like Mullah Falwell or Mullah Dobson or Mullah Roberston and their legions of Christalopithecans are going suddenly start putting the good of the nation ahead of the good of their cult.

Earth to Liberal Guy: They’re not.

This from the L.A. Times ambles that line of thinking right down the aisles of Wal-Mart…

Wal-Mart Sells 'Brokeback' Amid Conservative Protest
Christian group accuses the retailer of 'pushing an agenda' by featuring the gay-themed film.
By Claire Hoffman
Times Staff Writer

April 4, 2006

Wal-Mart to the producers of "Brokeback Mountain": We won't quit you.

Today, the largest retailer in the U.S. starts selling DVDs of the film about a gay love affair between two ranchers, despite protests from a national Christian organization.

The 3-million-member American Family Assn. initiated a campaign last week encouraging Wal-Mart customers to ask the company to refuse to stock the Universal film, whose director won an Academy Award last month, in its 3,900 stores.

The Tupelo, Miss.-based group began its campaign last week, after Wal-Mart placed ads with images of the film's stars, Jake Gyllenhaal and Heath Ledger, at the front of stores to promote the DVD release.

"It wasn't even a blockbuster movie, so if Wal-Mart isn't trying to push an agenda, why would they put it at the front door?" said Randy Sharp, director of special projects for the association, which calls itself an organization for "people who are tired of cursing the darkness and who are ready to light a bonfire."

Sharp said Wal-Mart was "trying to help normalize homosexuality in society. But how many copies are they going to have to sell to recruit the losses of customers who they've offended and will no longer shop at Wal-Mart?"


Still, Wal-Mart Stores Inc. has a history of bowing to pressure from the American Family Assn. and other organizations on issues of decency.

After customer complaints in 2002, the store pulled a pregnant version of one of Barbie's friends, Midge, even though the doll wore a prominent wedding ring.

And in 2003, the family association led the charge to persuade Wal-Mart and other retailers to stop carrying magazines it considered crude. As a result, Wal-Mart discontinued FHM, Maxim and Stuff and placed plastic shields over Cosmopolitan, Glamour and others.


Fuck these people, with every large, sharp object in the Gardening Department.

Of course, they could just not buy that which offends them. Just not read what gives them those guilty, gladiator-movie, big-pants-feelings “down there”. Just not watch what, in the immortal words of Lewis Black, “makes them feel icky.”

But no: It’s always with the bonfires, these people.

Books. Churches. Humans.

Always gotta put the torch to what they fear.

And since these human blisters fear every-fucking-thing…Everything Must Go!

In the end, “Brokeback…” is just an idea, manifested as strings of 1s and 0s incised on a sliver of plastic.

If you don’t voluntarily slot it into a DVD player and voluntarily set aside a couple of hours to watch it, it has no more power to work it’s Terrible, Nancification Mojo on you or your weak-willed whelplings -- or inflame the tender sensibilities of your morally stunted God -- than a lost episode of “The Prisoner” in an abandoned Chevy at the bottom of a mine shaft, or a pornographic mosaic under a heap of Atlantean rubble on the ocean floor.

How is it that the same human atavisms who whip themselves into rabid, ass-biting berserkers at the thought of someone, somewhere buying a copy of “Brokeback Mountain” in a Wal-Mart bargain bin...can also believe that they can make History, Cosmology, Chemistry, Archeology, Paleontology, Biology, Reason, Physics and Causality vanish in a burst of phuqutard willpower if they just close their potato-bug eyes and Wish Reeeeeal Hard?

I mean, can’t they just pretend Wal-Mart isn't there?

But of course they can’t: The Church of Cripplingly Low, Low Prices is where they do the rest of their prayin’, and since you can’t have no queer cowpokes fagging up the Temple of Commerce, ya gotta drive the genderchangers out of God’s Other House.

All of which is by way of my answer to Dan Dennett’s perfectly reasonable and utterly misguided thesis.

We’re at war, Mr. Dennett, with a vast number of our fellow citizens who will never listen to you, never heed you, never even notice you or I exist.

They are a vicious, dangerous cult that has declared war on The Enlightenment, and sworn blood-oaths that Science, Tolerance and Reason are to be treated as enemy combatants in that war: traitors to Heaven to be tortured, but never trusted.

But don’t bother taking my word for it. I am, after all, just a stinkin’ Liberal, so what do I know?

Instead listen to what Kevin Phillips – Old School Conservative and one of the Architects of the modern Republican Party – has to say about the Party he helped create.

This from the WaPo

How the GOP Became God's Own Party

By Kevin Phillips
Sunday, April 2, 2006; B03
Now that the GOP has been transformed by the rise of the South, the trauma of terrorism and George W. Bush's conviction that God wanted him to be president, a deeper conclusion can be drawn: The Republican Party has become the first religious party in U.S. history.


Today, a leading power such as the United States approaches theocracy when it meets the conditions currently on display: an elected leader who believes himself to speak for the Almighty, a ruling political party that represents religious true believers, the certainty of many Republican voters that government should be guided by religion and, on top of it all, a White House that adopts agendas seemingly animated by biblical worldviews.
Indeed, there is a potent change taking place in this country's domestic and foreign policy, driven by religion's new political prowess and its role in projecting military power in the Mideast.

…In addition to its concerns with oil and terrorism, the White House is courting end-times theologians and electorates for whom the Holy Lands are a battleground of Christian destiny. Both pursuits -- oil and biblical expectations -- require a dissimulation in Washington that undercuts the U.S. tradition of commitment to the role of an informed electorate.

The political corollary -- fascinating but appalling -- is the recent transformation of the Republican presidential coalition. Since the election of 2000 and especially that of 2004, three pillars have become central: the oil-national security complex, with its pervasive interests; the religious right, with its doctrinal imperatives and massive electorate; and the debt-driven financial sector, which extends far beyond the old symbolism of Wall Street.


Over a quarter-century of Bush presidencies and vice presidencies, the Republican Party has slowly become the vehicle of all three interests -- a fusion of petroleum-defined national security; a crusading, simplistic Christianity; and a reckless credit-feeding financial complex. The three are increasingly allied in commitment to Republican politics. On the most important front, I am beginning to think that the Southern-dominated, biblically driven Washington GOP represents a rogue coalition, like the Southern, proslavery politics that controlled Washington until Abraham Lincoln's election in 1860.


Unfortunately, more danger lurks in the responsiveness of the new GOP coalition to Christian evangelicals, fundamentalists and Pentecostals, who muster some 40 percent of the party electorate. Many millions believe that the Armageddon described in the Bible is coming soon. Chaos in the explosive Middle East, far from being a threat, actually heralds the second coming of Jesus Christ. Oil price spikes, murderous hurricanes, deadly tsunamis and melting polar ice caps lend further credence.

The potential interaction between the end-times electorate, inept pursuit of Persian Gulf oil, Washington's multiple deceptions and the financial crisis that could follow a substantial liquidation by foreign holders of U.S. bonds is the stuff of nightmares. To watch U.S. voters enable such policies -- the GOP coalition is unlikely to turn back -- is depressing to someone who spent many years researching, watching and cheering those grass roots.


These developments have warped the Republican Party and its electoral coalition, muted Democratic voices and become a gathering threat to America's future. No leading world power in modern memory has become a captive of the sort of biblical inerrancy that dismisses modern knowledge and science. The last parallel was in the early 17th century, when the papacy, with the agreement of inquisitional Spain, disciplined the astronomer Galileo for saying that the sun, not the Earth, was the center of our solar system.

Unfortunately, three of the preeminent weaknesses displayed in these past declines have been religious excess, a declining energy and industrial base, and debt often linked to foreign and military overstretch. Politics in the United States -- and especially the evolution of the governing Republican coalition -- deserves much of the blame for the fatal convergence of these forces in America today.

Shorter Phillips (dialog nicked from "Rosemary's Baby"): What have you done to it? What have you done to its eyes?

Shorter Dobson: He has his father's eyes.

These people will never leave us in peace because our very existence, Mr. Dennett, is hateful to them.

It doesn’t matter what we say or what we do, or how reasonable we are or how much of the middle ground we cede to them in the cause of the commonweal and keeping the peace in the family: Hate and fear is not what they feel, it’s who they are. They’re are on one, long, mean Blood-o-the-Lamb drunk, and no matter how often they are appeased, they will always find another excuse for rage.

For another pogrom.

Another purge.

Another bonfire.

I have no wish to try to reason with this filth any longer, Mr. Dennett. They have been steadily, unblinkingly goose-stepping towards the Constitution and the Bill of Rights with torches in hand for 30 year and have been crystal-clear about their intentions.

We cannot coexist because people who are simultaneously weak and stupid and believe they and they alone are the sole proprietors of the Inerrant Word Of God Bar and Grill will never tolerate competition in the marketplace of ideas: Like “Brokeback…” and Wal-Mart, their solution is to drive any nonconfoming thought out of the marketplace altogether and into oblivion.

And since we can’t live together (and the Christian/Buddahist/Humanist/Whatever in me is somewhat squeamish about the idea of luring them all together into the high desert, lighting off a nuke, and Rapturing their constituent atoms into the stratosphere) we must win.

However long it takes and however hard it is, we must win, and in the end, the only way to beat them...is to beat them. Is to render them electorally radioactive and, ultimately, culturally extinct.

They must be taken on head-on, and their squirmy fellow-travelers -- those Moderate Republicans who live off the cream, and are only along for the ride ‘cause the Children of the Corn promised not to touch their guns, raise their taxes or make them personally risk their tender assflesh killing brown people in faraway lands to keep their pump prices low -- must be dragged out into bright light and verbally scourged at every opportunity.

Yes, without a bankroll that’d choke an Abramoff, or a private army, or relatives in the White House, there are lots of things that the average citizen can’t do, but this it something we can do.

Every time they hit the lever for a candidate with an (R) in front of their name -- every time they run as a candidate with an (R) in front of their name -- we need to be demanding to know why they side with American Wahabi against their own nation and Founders.

And if they refuse to answer, we need to Shout Louder.

Conservative Fundamentalism must called publicly by its True Name –- Suicide-Pact Theocracy -- and frog-marched out to join Communism and Fascism –- with which they share so much in common -- on the Monumentally Bad Idea ash-heap of history.

That or it all ends, sooner or later, in the blood, fire and mad midnight mobs of a self-fulfilled Crazy Jebus’ Final Days Sale!!!

55 comments:

Frank said...

Preach it Drifty!

Anonymous said...

You are aware that the "debate" with these people will eventually descend to truncheons, fists, bullets, and bombs, are you not?

If we lose, we face a long black night that will be generations lifting, if it does at all. One with all the trimmings. I need not elaborate; those of you who have studied nascent totalitarianisms know what I'm talking about.

And if we win, we cannot expect them to abide by the legalities. Their more extreme members were on the hairy edge of a distributed "fourth generation warfare" Iraq style insurrection during the Clinton years. Remember the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building, anyone? Remember the abortion clinic terrorism?

Now they are a fingernail's breadth away from the totalitarian control they have always dreamed of. They are NOT going to let that go peaceably. They will resort to any measures whatever to seize and retain it.

Anonymous said...

umm, would it be inappropriate to say "amen to that"?

CMike said...

In that Moyer interview, Dennett said everyone should learn about all religions while in grade school. Dennett completely misunderstands that lots of people feel that their younguns' immortal souls are on the line and those folks are not going to risk any chance of their younguns stepping off the path of the "one way" or being tempted by the Devil in the guise of a classroom teacher. That goes for plenty of Catholics as well as Evangelicals.

We have seperation of Church and State in this country. No curriculum could ever be developed to teach, more than superficially, the subject of religion in public school that would be satisfactory to the spectrum of parents who are confirmed in their Belief or non-Belief. Public school is not where this battle of comparative religion should be waged, especially a battle of comparative Christianity.

The more realistic approach for secularists and Lefty Christians is to challenge the Right in the public square. Instead of maintaining their heretofore respectful silence, the Left should start declaring that the political Right's faithful are being led astray by Mammon serving silver-tongued false prophets.

On the one hand Conservatives want to be relieved of the specter of uncertainty in life and the threat of death. But they also want something for nothing; or rather, everything, i.e. life everlasting in a heaven, for some collection plate offerings, rote mumbling and displaying obsequiousness to alpha-males; be they certain preachers, businessmen, politicians or military officials. The thing is everyone wants to be sure their lifetime investments are safe and available to be collected at some future date.

It's about time for some lefty Bible thumpers to make the case that the immortal souls of right wingers are in serious peril as a result of their rejection of the clear teachings of Jesus. Enough of listening in respectful silence to lectures on morality by the religious Right. The religious (and not so religious) Left should start making the case that according to New Testament teachings it is the religious Right-wingers who are going to most certainly go to Hell if they don't change their ways and get right with Jesus.

Two can play this game. Then we'll see if Right-wing churches really want religion to become the subject of democratic political debate in this country.

Dom E said...

I'm a leftist as much as the next guy (registered as a Green but voted for Gore and Kerry; grad student in political philosophy and ethics), but I just feel like there's a bit of hypocrisy going on here.

Not all of "these people" are the totally irrational or willfully malicious monsters you paint them to be.

Most of them are not going around, supporting policies because they hate black people, or women, or gays. I mean c'mon, it's almost like them saying that the terrorists attack us because "they hate our freedom."

The way you paint this as an us vs. them conflict is exactly the kind of thing we should be disapproving of, whether in ourselves or in others.

I think in the name of liberal tolerance--and I readily grant that intolerance is one thing we should not tolerate--we should try to be a little more sympathetic. I'm not so gung-ho about letting this culture war become a violent civil war.

Here, let me give you an example of something that I recently came across that really helped me to see a bit more where the sane conservatives are coming from and how they can support policies that just seem evil to us.

Psychologist Jon Haidt has a really interesting hypothesis (based on cross cultural research) suggesting that liberals have an "impoverished" moral worldview because they fail to see aspects of the moral world that conservatives recognize. Here's the abstract from a paper in press, which I think is highly worth reading, if for no other reason than its interesting analysis of the culture war:

"Researchers in moral psychology and social justice have agreed that morality is about matters of harm, rights, and justice. With this definition of morality, conservative opposition to social justice programs has appeared to be immoral, and has been explained as a product of various non-moral processes, such as system justification or social dominance orientation. In this article we argue that, from an anthropological perspective, the moral domain is usually much broader, encompassing many more aspects of social life and valuing institutions as much or more than individuals. We present theoretical and empirical reasons for believing that there are in fact five psychological systems that provide the foundations for the world's many moralities. The five foundations are psychological preparations for caring about and reacting emotionally to harm, reciprocity (including justice, fairness, and rights), ingroup, hierarchy, and purity. Political liberals have moral intuitions primarily based upon the first two foundations, and therefore misunderstand the moral motivations of political conservatives, who generally rely upon all five foundations."

The rest of the article can be found here (pdf). It's just a draft, but it's relatively short and highly readable.

I don't necessarily agree with everything he says there, but it does give food for thought. If we better understand where conservatives are coming from, we may be able to communicate with them in a way that respects both their values and ours.

Yes, you can see this as a kind of appeasement, that a tough response is necessary because "they started it." And that's very true, the Republican Party initiated this utter refusal to compromise with those who they disagree with.

But this is not how democracy should be. We should be able to cooperate, compromise, and tolerate people's differences. Evangelicals, by and large, are not malicious people. Many of them have different priorities, and are not as well-informed as some of us, perhaps, but the vast majority of them mean well.

So, drifty, I love your blog, I'm a long time reader and fan, but c'mon, man! Your invective is highly entertaining and all, and I do think sometimes you have to be uncompromising about certain principles (like liberty, equality, tolerance, compassion, and so forth).

But I feel like we liberals and leftists could benefit from questioning some of our own certainties, and making sure we don't fall into the kind of dogmatism, intolerance, and hateful discourse that we condemn right-wingers for. Isn't this reasonable?

Anonymous said...

“Information. INFORMATION!”
“you won’t get it.
“By hook or by crook, we will.”
“Who are you?”
“I am the new #2”
“Who is #1?”
“You are #6”
“I am NOT a NUMBER. I am a FREE man!”

Anonymous said...

I will not be PUSHED, filed, stamped, INDEXED, briefed, debriefed, or NUMBERED, my life is my OWN


...not to belabor the point

Anonymous said...

...be seeing you...

roxtar said...

The only thing that will bring them down is sex. Brought down Swaggart. Brought down Bakker. What we need is a lefty Nymph Squad to hose 'em and expose 'em.

Anonymous said...

specter_of_spinoza, I don't think you get it.

That is not grandma in the bed. It's the wooloof! The big eyes are the certainty of righteousness and the big teeth are the lust for power over everybody else.

The Fundo leaders need to be exposed through their own words and deeds and you and the fundo followers need to recognise what you are collectively looking at.

Driftglass is trying to alert you to the fact that these people do not want to play democracy.

The Catholic and Episcopalian churches are worse than useless in this fight because they won't call 'em as they have been using the same schtick for centuries but with more moderate language of late. They're envious.

Oh ... and well said Driftglass BTW

Anonymous said...

spector_of_Spinoza- dude, this ain't an academic discussion about right and wrong. This is about a cult of people who have given it over to hucksters and charalatans pedaling the biggest crock of moral/religious BS to come down the pike lately (now, most religion is BS but that is another discussion).

DG is making the simple observation that these people are pod-people, zombie's, the un-dead. They do not think, they simply act based on the stimulation of the deepest parts of the reptile brain, carefully manipulated by the aforementioned slime-balls (read Christopathic Mullah's).

These people need to be ridiculed, humiliated and driven from the public square with all due vigor.

Wow, a morning rant beats caffeine! ;-)

driftglass said...

but I feel like we liberals and leftists could benefit from questioning some of our own certainties, and making sure we don't fall into the kind of dogmatism, intolerance, and hateful discourse that we condemn right-wingers for. Isn't this reasonable?

specter_of_spinoza,

With respect, there is a time to hold forums and roundtables and teach-ins on the efficacy of property rights...but not while the house is on fire.

Liberals have no shortage of intropective skills. My God, all we seem to do these days is stand on the double yellow line and fret like Hamlet over what we should do.

What we lack are a cadre of leaders who will stand up and fight. That's the reason a thrill ran through body politic when Dean ran and when Feingold stood up and said "No more."

Every time a Falwell or Robertson goes unrebutted -- on moral grounds, I agree with you there -- the undecideds in the middle look at us and see a bunch of empty shirts who don't have the courage of our own convictions.

I'm not gung ho about this culture war either. I didn't start it. But like it or not, it is Us vs. Them...because those are the terms of engagement they have demanded.

We have been called liars and cowards and traitors and ungodly and UnAmerican for thirty fucking years by these creeps.

We have tried being tolerant and inclusive. It is worse than a losing strategy when dealing with these people: it emboldens them and what it has yeilded is this -- they run the government and we worry about whether or not we're being nice enough to them.

I'm all for questioning my eternal verities, but not at the expense of my existence. Nowhere in the Liberal Handbook (and I am holding a dog-earred copy right here) am I required to be nice to bad people who are holding a knife to my Constitution, or be tolerant of bigots who are working for my extinction.

driftglass said...

Of course, US Blues said it better ;-)

JG said...

Weren't the Fundies nearly bankrupt 6 years ago? They've grown exponentially more powerful since Bush began funneling funds to faith based humanitarian groups. The answer is to cut off this supply of $$.

Change the party in power for a start, no?

JG said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
An Angry Old Broad said...

Have I told you lately Drifty that I love you?LOL.

To me this is really simple.Perhaps after spending a few years getting the living crap kicked out of me on a regular basis,my perspective is rather jaded,but here goes anyway:

I'm one of those "victims of domestic violence"lawmakers like to trot out when they talk about fixing that problem.And having spent way too long in that particular trench,I can say with pretty fair certainty that the ONLY way to stop this sort of shit is to fight back,and fight back HARD.

The man who chose to use me as a personal punching bag never thought in a million years I'd ever be able to kick his ass.In the end,I had to fight for my life,and once I drew blood,his blood,pressed those charges and pointed out who he was to everyone I could think of,he not only went to jail,when he got out,he didn't bother to look for me to exact any revenge.

I grew up with parents who bought into the dominionist craziness Drifty so eloquently writes about with great frequency.I was a pre teen and teen in the 70's,I was there watching these people work their way into local and state governments and preach their hate.I suffered alot of abuse on the homefront as a result,I know what happens in far too many homes in the name of God.

For all this crowing about family and values and morals,this cult,and it IS a cult,destroys families.It destroyed mine,to the point where my parents ignore their only grandkids(my siblings will never have kids,as is their choice,and trust me,that's the only favor they ever did the world)because they've deemed me to be Satan's Handmaiden.

You cannot fight these people on the same playing field we lefties like to play on.One that is fair,honest,and based on personal integrity.I learned this lesson at the hands of an abuser and my parents,and only wish I'd learned it sooner.If you play fair and be "nice"or civil to these people you end up with a knife in your back.

They declared "Spiritual War"on the rest of us decades ago,and they've gained power precisely by manipulating"religious freedom"and our tolerance of that right.It's past the time to stop allowing them to hide behind God and using that as a shelter for their hatred,their crimes,their racism,sexism and hatred of beauty.Not to mention the millions of tax free money(and all those land holdings) lining their pockets.

It's not Christianity that bothers me,it's those who hide behind that title and use it as cover for some really heinous things that I abhor.Too many people are being hurt,while the nation itself is being eaten away from the inside out for this to be allowed to continue.

Dom E said...

OK, I'll concede the point.

I'm a pluralist. I don't think these ways are necessarily incompatible. I'm an educator, and there many people in this country who could stand to be better informed and open their minds to different ways of thinking. I put my skills to best use here.

Meanwhile, you are an excellent polemical writer and you do a fantastic job of getting people riled up. And I think we do need to be passionate at this time because there are people in power who have done a lot of damage to our country and our world and they need to be stopped.

Thanks for taking the time to respond, and keep up the good work.

Anonymous said...

It's the hypocrisy that slays me. Jesus would knock over all of their tables. I'm an atheist, but I wish I were a believer just so I could believe Jesus was coming back - because he'd be so pissed! He'd set them all straight, and they'd find they weren't flying upward in the rature, but falling the other way.

Anonymous said...

driftglass: You, as usual, are pure genius.

Everytime I wrap my tolerant, liberal, humanist, moderate crede in an oily paper bag -- and stuff it under the sofa cushion, and look for that hardwood baseball bat -- I think you, driftie.

Sometimes you just gotta stand up and swing the bat. Or you are not a human kinda hominid.

I am glad other commenters dealt with specter_of_spinoza (I was sorely tempted to write: SPHINCTRE of Spinoza). Cuz I really really wanted to crack my pacifist baseball bat over what sounds like my mollusc senators (Clinton and Schumer) and all them other But, But, But equivocating paralyzed Vichy Democrats who left Russ Feingold and his baby-step Censure resolution to twist from the hanging tree.

But others have dealt appropriately with Spinoza's Sphinctre. You have not been reading driftglass wisdom long enuf, SS!! Or you would know that ... NOBODY REASONS WITH NAZIS.

It's like Spinoza debating with a single-celled flagellate. And hoping for wisdom or truce.

GIVE NO QUARTER, FOLLOWERS OF BUSHIDO. NO REASON, NO TALKIE.

Anonymous said...

SOS -

DG uses very colorful language, but he's DEAD ON about the cultist nature of the GOP. You might be able to run an intervention with a few folks and get them to re-think their views (or, perhaps, THINK about their views for the first time ever), and get them to behave in a more reasonable and intelligent manner. On the other hand, when you have a pack of obviously rabid dogs running head at you, it's time to take out the 12-gauge and start blasting! (Or the whoopee cushion - whatever best stems the onslaught.)
Psychology is a fascinating field of study (which is why I have a BA in it), but hypotheses will only get you so far.
Most of the Liberals I know understand completely that the cultists define morality differently from the standard liberal definition. But do we allow cultists to frame the debate about what is TRULY moral?
I have a relative who teaches in a church-sponsored private high school. The school sponsored a "Peace Week" program, which included speakers, skits, posters with sayings related to peace, and other similar things. My relative was shocked by how unreceptive - even antagonistic - many of the students were to the notion of "Peace". One student in particular complained that none of the posters quoted Republicans. My relative noted that Abraham Lincoln WAS quoted, and further suggested that that student was more than welcome to provide examples of Republican quotes about peace. The student turned and stomped off.
My relative has cited to me numerous examples of instances where the kids start spouting neocon party line but, when respectfully questioned about it, by the teacher or by another student, start hemming and hawing and getting confused. That to me is a clear sign that the student hasn't really given a lot of intelligent consideration to the talking points that have been fed to him.
What is happening to far too many people who fall under this cultist identity is that they've swallowed the party/church line unquestioningly. Perhaps some of them have never really had any opportunity to learn how to think for themselves.
The rest are just controlling, greedy bastards who are taking advantage of the sheep.
Sorry this is so disjointed, but I'm in a rush - gotta go now.

zombie rotten mcdonald said...

AOB - you rock. what a story.

As usual, drifty nails a high hard one to deep center.

The worst part is that apart from the Christopathic GOP wing and the hypocritical hucksters who harness them, otherwise reasonable conservatives won't speak out against what the GOP has become.

Yes, one of the reasons is fear- fear of being wrong, fear of being told they were wrong, fear of being added to the gOP ShitList- but I think there's another thing that prevents them from fully admitting how bad the GOP is and how much they've harmed America.

The sickly little tingle they get from being in power, and the only way the GOP can hold on to that power is their hellish marriage of Corporate dollarage and Rightwing Religious conviction, lubicated by the necessary Dieboldian intervention.

Nearly every time I've started to get a normally reasonable conservative to admit the damage (and after they've gotten the 'yeahButClinton' out of their system), they've fallen back on the Bush Won meme. Regardless of the lack of a win in 2000, the justifiably questionable win in 2004, and the polls indicating mostAmercians don't buy the Repbulican's positions.

They realize, that without the swindling, corruption, and vile religiousity, the Republikans can't -and don't win.

Anonymous said...

raggingurrl is right it's the $. We have funded these nut job abstinence only, IT think tanks, and biblical prophecy with govmt. grants for the last 5 years. The big time muhhluhs Dobson and Roberson and the like get millions for their phony charities.

tech98 said...

Toitalitarian religious dementia and the arrogance that occompanies it, is the curse of America. Other Western countries have mostly shaken off this burden years ago.

With these militant, self-entitled authoritarian simpletons among us, I always thought this country would not go gently into decline the way Great Britain did before us.

I am afraid that among the frustrations of economic economic decline the "God wants me to be rich" droolers will turn to violence. And with their lifetime of conditioned obedience, it's not going to be against the powerful -- it's going to be against average people or the powerless who don't conform to their whims.

Anonymous said...

it is LONG past time for the Democrats to quit playing Boy Scouts when fighting the ReThug Hells Angels

btw: when does Bush-Nero bomb Iran? it is coming

Anonymous said...

You liberals understand nothing about morals, values or the heartland or America or what makes us the greatest country in the world. All you have is hate, no ideas, and you discrinimate against people of faith with your bias. If you hate it so much, leave. You are the cancer, not us. We won, and you lost, and there are more of us than you elite coastal latte-sipping class warriors. You are nothing. Please be quiet now while we return America to her former glory.

Anonymous said...

One of Three -
We ARE the heartland. I don't hate my country, I'm trying to keep it free. And I don't like coffee!

By the way, your hood is tilted.

Anonymous said...

I hate the word 'glory'. It is blood-soaked and and rests on lies.

driftglass said...

A scinitllating "I know you are but what am I?" riposte from a driveby chucklehead.

The source of your filthy cult -- the CSA -- was not the "former glory" of America. It was a police-state run by degenerates in the name of God

Neither was its ugly stepchild, the Jim Crow south. Just another mutation of the same diseased. Wallace won over and over again in the Klan South thanks to people like you.

Did that make him right?

Does that make you proud?

The Modern GOP is just the latest inbred freak sire of the same despicable witchbag of cult religion and stupid people.

Your own founders say so; they recoil in horror from creatures like you.

The Modern GOP is a Party of traitors, cultists and fools that it's own founders have disowned.

And you will be dispatched once again into swamps and madrasses from whence you came.

Anonymous said...

My error - that should be "Three of Three". Damn Borgs anyway! Can't they be original with ANYTHING???

Anonymous said...

"ingroup, hierarchy, and purity"

So… if you're NOT a racist monarchist who lives in terror of getting menstrual blood all over his willy, your moral worldview is "impoverished"?

I guess I'll just have to live with that.

Anonymous said...

bozo iii: What is it with you “We’re Number One-ers” anyway? Don’t you ever have any original thoughts? Love it or leave it. Really. That’s freakin’ forty years old. I think y’all must have been born with a continuous tape loop of Limbaugh-Coulter-Savage-Hannity-O’Reilly running on the tape player that you got instead of a brain. If you can’t add something new to the conversation, please just shut up already.

Thank yew.

Anonymous said...

Senor Spinoza,

"Meanwhile, you are an excellent polemical writer and you do a fantastic job of getting people riled up."

Driftglass is not getting anyone riled up. We are ALREADY riled up. He is giving expression to it. We all can see that grandma is not just having a bad day and that we are looking at something that is lifethreatening.
I was going to add in my previous comment that that is likely because you haven't ever personaly been on the sharp end of their treatment. Otherwise you would sound more like Angry Old Broad (Yay, go AOB!).

We are taught that there really is no such thing as evil and to respect and obey authority, which is perfect for the perpetrators. As a victim, you only get free when somehow you can muster the courage when you are beaten down to rip apart the conditioning that has created your world and to stand alone against those around you who will not face the truth because they have NO courage.
It is then that you realise that the whole society is complicit in your abuse and that's why you copped the pasteing from others here. You are seen as an enabler, a co-dependent to these addicted abusers.

For me, people with your attitudes (from lack of experience not malice) are just as much a danger as the warmongers, bigots and serial abusers in our society.

I think you need some educating yourself. In fact, it would be professionally irresponsible not to do so. Go check out your local rape crisis centre or Women's shelter. Go read up about Ritual Abuse if you want to see the logical end of religious power. Power corrupts and religious authorities always want more power.

PWhit said...

Drifty, I see you've made some new friends. I also noticed your comment count is up. I'd refer your driver buyers to "live free of buy." Some of your finest! What's worse, no ideas or really bad ideas?
Or really really bad ideas that didn't work 150 years ago that they'd like to try again.

Heartland?

Whatever....

PWhit said...

Please be quiet now while we return America to her former glory
of slave owning women supressing short dicked hyper christian your suffering is good for you and better for me julep sipping slave girl raping ignorant fat and slow witted morons.
Your hoods newly drycleaned and wating for you at the store.

Anonymous said...

Wait a minute....there's a lost episode of The Prisoner? ;-)

Lindsay Stewart said...

well well well...brent bozell. the appearance of this reptillian priss would seem to indicate that there is a fear in the hen house. mr. bozell is what bill maher might describe as a consumate scold. he leads campaigns of email, fax and letter deluges to media and government. he longs for the carefree days of yore. an imagined yore. a fantasy of america as a land where the black folk lived somewhere else and knew their place. where women were demure and modest and took pride in their cleaning, birthing and the servicing of a daddy lancelot hero figure, that also never fucking existed.

bozell is one of the cretins who insists that his morality is the only morality. of course he isn't above lying through his teeth to get the job done. google his dealings with vince mcmahon's wwf. bozell wants to control what you can see, what you can read, how you live and what gets believed.

i submit to you, drifters and glass, that brent bozell is the enemy. big as life and right on the doorstep. he is what you will fight. learn his methods and understand his tactics. you will see them soon, in all of their dung-mole glory.

driftglass said...

Angry Old Broad,
I was remiss in not thanking you for sharing your story.

Abuse is horror enough, but abuse meted out while the abuser is screaming "God Is Love"?

How strong you are.

Thanks

Anonymous said...

You are correct. This is splendid. Thank you!

Anonymous said...

Respectfully, shaved ape:

Fuck you.

We are the real Americans, and you lost and please go and die.

merlallen said...

my Grandparents were fundamentalist Pentecostals who thought TV was an instrument of Satan.
They didn't own a TV. They didn't insist that no one else watch TV.
and when they came to visit we didn't have to hide the tv or pretend we never watched it.

Lindsay Stewart said...

"L. Brent Bozell III said...
Respectfully, shaved ape:"

actually herr bozell, your respect isn't worth a damn thing. so how about you roll it all up into a tight little ball and clutch it to your heaving breast. the next time you fall onto your fainting couch, at the terrible realization that others will think and do as they please, despite you, you can unfurl your "respect" and use it to wipe the spittle of indignation from your chin.

"Fuck you."

oh. oh gosh. that seems rather profane, coming from a champion of decency. you wouldn't want your inbred flock of prudes to hear you use that sort of vulgarity. of course, hypocrisy is your calling card. terrible of me to upset you so, most unkind of me to point you out for the cheap liar and hack that you are. let's have a look at your street creds shall we...

"Bozell-created and run org forced to pay $3.5 millon for false claims against WWE Smackdown
The Parents Television Council (PTC), created and run by Bozell, has been forced to pay $3.5 million to the WWF, for falsely claiming that televised wrestling was responsible for the deaths of four children."

aw, isn't that special. that tidbit was snipped from a profile and roundup of your smear tactics:

http://www.mediatransparency.org/personprofile.php?personID=21

there is no shortage of evidence of your calumny. google is a wonderful thing. you are a small minded, petty and pitiful creature mr. bozell (assuming, of course, that this isn't an imposter). you and your ilk will always be with us. you feed on the fears and stupidity of an ignorant base. fear and stupidity aren't going away any time soon, so you'll never go hungry. but that is the charm of freedom. i can accept that you, or something like you, will always be with us. bitter, repressed and repressive, you are free to squeal and root for filth. you are free to lie and bamboozle and campaign for your brand of crippled decency. and i remain free to point out your lies, smears, hatefulness and deceit. you'll notice, mr. bozell, that i have not stooped to your tone. i am not swearing at you. i am not using curses or profanity and i guarantee you that i am more than capable with gutter language. i shall leave it to you to prove your own disgrace, hypocrite.

"We are the real Americans, and you lost and please go and die."

well, i'm not american at all, i've lost nothing and i keep on breathing. it is real americans like you, mr. bozell, that cause we, in the rest of the world, to shudder. it is real americans like you, that have diminished your great nation in the eyes of the world. it is real americans like driftglass and the many, rising voices of reality, sanity and intelligence, that give us hope that america might cure herself of the parasitic, hateful infestation of real americans like you.

BitterHarvest said...

Drifty, wooohooo! You're always beautiful when you go after the Preachers of Hate or David Brooks. Speaking of Brooks, he wrote an op-ed in the Times today...

Mister Roboto said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Mister Roboto said...

Hey "Ima Bent Bozo the Turd":

You forgot to close your "comment" with "Sieg Heil!"

Fuck Godwin's Law. Sometimes it's totally justified. Especially when the idiot in question is being an example in spades of the very pathologies being discussed.

Anonymous said...

quit hecklin Spinoza - the dude's a good guy and it's precisely his kind of input that makes DGs point. Spinoza would be correct if this were a civilized debate AS IT SHOULD BE, but certainly hasn't been for a long long time. I think of GOPpers as the bully that grabs your hand and uses it to punch you in the face while gleefully purring "quit hitting yourself, quit hitting yourself".

All the same I likee Griffon's response - DG didn't rile me up either, I've been frikkin riled for ages!!! DG just helps focus 'it' with laser precision. Think of it as SDI - the Strategic Driftglass Imperium.

Bozo da Turd - sheesh, what serendipity-doo that one of them thar cultist wackos would wander into the campfire/cirlcejerk. I mean it's like bein on a deer hunt and frikkin Bambi walks on into the blind and says "My tender ass flesh is sooo succulent.. keeel meee!! puhleez Kiielll meee!!" I can't say it any better than PSApe.

Iz'all, chow!
-skunqesh

Mister Roboto said...

I think of GOPpers as the bully that grabs your hand and uses it to punch you in the face while gleefully purring "quit hitting yourself, quit hitting yourself".

I think I recall Drifty himself making a similar comparison in one of his earlier posts. ("Why are you invading yourself? Why are you invading yourself?")

Anonymous said...

heh! I'd say I'd gotten it from Drifty, but long before Nelson Muntz demonstrated this timeless technique upon Milhouse in repeated episodes of The Simpsons, my big sister was a master of "stop hitting yourself".

"Uhhh, no thanks, I'm allergic to knuckle sandwhiches"
-M.V.

jurassicpork said...

Check out what Joe Biden said about this on Bill Maher's show (he announced that he was running for Prez in '08, btw).

Great rant, btw, as usual.

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Sincerely,

Pat
Ringgold GA

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