And thus it was, on the Thirteenth of May in that Year, did Our First Lady did appear to the masses of West Virginia supporters and Clinton
1. White people wont vote for the black guy. We'll make sure of it.
2. Math doesn't count, but Florida and Michigan do. Because,
3. Rules are for little, non-Clinton-type people.
41 comments:
You revealed the third secret before the convention!?!
(crossing myself rapidly, repeatedly)
Realism moment: she's got a good case that the only thing to keep the party together is to give her the vp slot. And I think that is likely, no matter how much we may dislike it.
She can say that she will deliver all of these states, like West Virginia, which do matter in terms of a fifty state strategy.
And she will be correct. Here is the choice. Do you want a fifty state pickup in November?
Well, she did mention the Bible in her speech and all.
michael - So you're proposing that we all should agree that "the black guy" needs the clinton training wheels? Already, the clintons are only counting his votes as 2/3 of a vote so hey, let's just completley destroy the Democratic party by buying into ONE premise these batshit crazy clintons put forth.
"Because I waaaaannnnnnnaaaaaa" is not a reason to make someone vp.
$20M in debt is a great reason not to. I mean she had this freaking "wrapped up" in the media and her mind ..... then came the pesky little voters.
I, and most other people need this to be over. The one big long "meee meee meeee" fit she's been throwing is fucking exhausting! Just fucking exhausting. Who would sign her up for 4 more years of the "Hillary for President" campaign? Feh.
The Democrats had better get about shutting this down in no uncertain terms, like by Friday, before we lose all the voters who are ready to stick needles in their eyes from the insanity talk coming out of the clintons' campaign. gaaaaaaaaagh.
Another FINE post, Driftglass!
MJ, I'm proposing no such thing. I'm not a Clinton supporter at all, but I recognize the reality of politics and a divided Democratic party is not what we want if it can be avoided.
She's not going to drop out by Friday or before the end of primary voting, nor should she in my opinion. She has too much invested in finishing, it doesn't matter if she comes in second as long as she has run all the way. And the second place finisher wins a consolation prize whether you like it or not, unless you want to tell her and all of the people who voted for her that we don't care for them.
Hmmm...maybe she'd accept a Supreme Court seat as a consolation prize?
[Since those are lifetime seats, that'd let her piss off the reactionaries even more and longer than she could as Prez. ;)]
michael - Sure. She should finish.... she should also stfu about the fantasy election numbers she's going on about. She is statinng over and over the map from 200/2004 and we got a new ball game here ONLY if the clintons are not involved.
And I think it would be far better for the Dems to stand up and just say no. Their supporters will either vote for Obama or they won't. After 8 years of this namby pamby whiney assed titty baby president and 2 of the same crap from congress, I'm in no mood, and I don't think most of country is either, for negotiating our position of power away to appease people who really need to be jolted out of their perpetual victimness.
Do I care about them? I don't care about anyone who doesn't get bush/clinton/bush/clinton is more of the same and dynastys of any stripe are unAmerican. Mrs. Bill Clinton should have gotten that and if she weren't so fucking selfish, she might have.
We have GOT to move along here. The less baggage the better. Got to.
Sorry, didn't mean to imply you were a hillaryiest. *blush*
I'm with Myrtle, here. If her supporters are such WATBs (and I really think it's just a small number that are) that they are willing to risk the Supreme Court, more war and all the rest that comes with McSame to indulge their egos than they can't be placated. I've been involved in a number of organizations where we made great compromises to keep the WATBs on board and they always ended up quitting over something else--leaving us with the compromises no one else wanted in the first place.
joe frantic
Obama will LOSE considerable credibility as an agent of change if he were to accomodate the tantrum, posturing and wholesale bullshit being flung by the flacks, hacks and "activists".
Turning a Dem cakewalk into a quagmire took real talent. Nobody's ever said the Clone-tons lack talent.
As they have since 1992, they are selling out their party for their base. The reproblican lites.
Wow; great chop, Driftglass; awesome creepiness factor. You just know that veil hangs over a pair of pants. And the Virgin implication. . . well never mind.
How could any Democrat forget the Republicans wanted Hillary to run against Sooo fuckin' bad they were willing to vote for her in primaries. . . they may have even delivered Indiana for her.
Does anyone believe Obama would live out his first term if through some Holy Mother of God miracle they could win with her on the ticket?
No. Let the Mother of all Drama Queens fade into the past century with the McBushes where she belongs. Obama needs a running mate that is the new politics as much as he is. That may very well be a woman, but it will never be Billary.
Bill says that putting her on the court would "let her piss off the reactionaries."
How would she piss them off? By praising John McCain?
Voting to sustain legisation that makes flagburning a federal crime?
Voting to authorize an illegal and utterly lie-based invasion of a country that had jackshit to do with 9-11, and which was, we now know beyond a shadow of a doubt, NO threat to us or to their neighbors?
Supporting the pre-emptive bombing of Iraq?
Running a campaign rife with warpimp fearmongering, and appeals to the same kind of recist crap that Karl Rove and the republicans have made such political hay of?
THAT kind of "reactionary piss-off"
???
Sorry; that should have been "pre-emptive bombing of Iran", of course.
Bush has been trying desperately to merge the two, in the minds of 'murkans.
I hope it's not working on me. :o)
I'll try one more time, because I've slept on it and it still makes sense to me.
Hillary Clinton's speech last night was relatively conciliatory while maintaining the illusion of possibility for her supporters that she will win. If she did otherwise, if she conceded she would have to drop out, and she must finish the entire race for the sake of the history books. She must not leave doubt that she had the strength to run the entire race.
But she said quite clearly that she will support and work for the Democratic nominee.
She can deliver states that we'd have to write off otherwise. Think about that.
Vice presidents have been of opposing party, after all.
Michael, I don't think she's got a good case at all.
I think both the party leadership, and the rank and file that have given Obama the grassroots support to help him break every fund-raising record, and done it with small donations, both know that a substantial part of Obama's attraction is that he's a different breed of cat from the political hacks like Hillary, etc. If he takes Hillary on as his running mate, that luster will disappear, to a damaging degree.
Traditionally, the VP is the hatchet man (or woman). It's their job to do the scutwork of really hammering the opposing ticket.
After the praise that Hillary has given McCain; in the debates would she go after him for his bad breath?
Those dinosaurs; repubs AND, to a lesser extent, some democrats, are the ones who are responsible for where we are today.
If Obama lets the mossbacks shove Clinton up his ass, he, and we, will pay a price with the voters much worse than losing any dead-end Clintonistas.
Any deal he cuts with her, will be ammo for the republicans.
She, and her people, are vastly overrating their clout in this situation. Just as they vastly overrated her "right" to the nomination.
I hope that Obama has the courage and the intelligence (which he has so far shown, a-plenty) to NOT make deals with her.
As Lower Manhattanite pointed out, with laser accuracy; do the rank-and-file democrats who've given Obama their hard-earned money want to see a DIME of it used to pay off MARK PENN'S SALARY?
Hillary Clinton is standing on the verge of political oblivion. She got there by her stupidity and by her corrupt willingness to abandon her natural constituents, the progressive wing of the party, to go whoring after conservative support.
The idea that we are supposed to reward her for doing this, is nauseating to me, and it will be, to a lot of good democrats.
She's free to decide what she wants to do...essentially, to decide what kind of "democrat" she wants to be...
but asking Obama to accept any kind of responsiblity for the rotten choices SHE has made, whether it's her supporters' fallback fantasy of still getting her on the ticket, or of his paying off her campaign debts, is bullshit.
Tanbark, okay, I'll argue against myself and say that I don't want Hillary Clinton to become president in four or eight years or ever, because she should not be trusted with the highest office and therefore she should not be vice president.
But we have a problem to solve.
The instant that Obama agrees to accept Hillary Clinton on the ticket, every negative that she has with the moderate republicans and independents that Obama has a good chance of picking up, will accrue to him.
What she's saying is this; what her supporters are THREATENING the democratic party with, is this:
"No one who voted for me will vote for Obama. They would all rather vote for a candidate, John McCain, who has the political cachet and status of being a wart on george bush's ass."
And they are saying this:
as our economy is tanking...
as the debacle in Iraq, with it's $3 billion-dollar-a-week-tab, and counting, shows not the slightest sign of "mission accomlished"...
as oil prices currently set a new record each week ($19 ppb in 2002; $126 ppb, now)...
as the dollar drops like a stone...
As Hezbollah (primarily due to Bush and Condi's little vanity war last year; the one that Rice described as "The birth pangs of a new mid-east") has just routed the pro-government Sunni opposition in Lebanon, incidentaly giving Iran another boost in power and influence, to go with the ones which Bush has so thoughtfully and bloodily bestowed on them, in Iraq...
as George Bush's numbers boldly go where no numbers have gone before...
I'm going to simplify here:
Anyone who thinks that Hillary's stock is going up, and who thinks that having her on the ticket would be a boost to democratic chances in November, is saying:
The surge is working.
The economy will be better.
The assholes like Limbaugh, who were pimping her to their bottom-feeders and everyone else, to try to ratfuck Obama, will maintain their praise of her, or at least, not revert to their "She-Satan" descriptions of her, if Obama is cowardly and stupid enough to take her for the second spot. It's insane.
They will drag out the specter of Bubba roaming the halls of the Executive office building (and the White House)in hot pursuit of fresh poon, like a beloved classic pornflick.
Putting Hillary on the ticket will be as if Obama had voluntarily climbed into a time machine with she and Bill, with Jesse Helms and Ken Starr at the controls. And guess which direction the machine will run?
Let. Go. Of. Her.
There are some great people out there who would bring many pluses to the ticket this fall.
Forward; not backward.
The rumors are that Obama camp wanted Hill in the race through West Virginia. They didn't want to lose to a candidate who wasn't in the race anymore, and they would have, too. Because...it's West Virginia.
Anyway, sigh, we really, truly don't need those particular electoral votes.
The amazing work the Obama campaign is doing on enfranchising disenfranchised voters is going to change this country, hopefully permanently.
Michael, with all due respect, I don't think there is a problem.
That's just Clinton and her pearl-clutching desperation.
W. Virginia is the ONLY state where Obama has not been competitive.
Extrapolating the demographics there, into some nationwide blue-collar "problem" for Obama, to me, is just nonsense.
He won red-state South Carolina, with 25 percent of the white vote, and he did that running against the Clintons who USED to own the black vote, and against John Edwards who was born in S. Cackalack and who won the state in the 2004 primary, when he trounced the democratic field, including John Kerry and Al Sharpton.
In red state Virginia, Obama pulled 134,000 more votes than ALL of the repubican candidates combined.
He won Alabama, with 56% of the vote, to 41.6 % for Clinton. There are a lot of black voters in Alabama, but not enough to give him that kind of a margin. A lot of whites voted for him, and it's a certainty that, in Alabama, a lot of them were anything BUT "elitists".
In Maryland, he hammered her:
60-37. Is anyone going to tell us that that didn't involve an ASS of working class people voting for Obama?
Hillary, in practically the same sentence attacks him for his "elitist" support AND for the fact that he gets more support from black voters than even Bill did. It's insane.
I say, and the facts support it; there IS no problem with Obama, among "hardworking white people". I think it's just the opposite. I think they will come out for him strongly in the general, just like they've been coming out for him in the primaries.
I'm tired of people waving Hillary's success with the peckerhead vote at us. It's just more Clinton bullshit, as when Bill tried to trivialize Barack's success in South Carolina, by comparing him to Jesse Jackson.
The country is NOT moving to the right. It's moving to the left. All the democrats have to do is keep reminding the voters that John McCain really DOES represent a third term for George Bush. And pointing to what is going on in Iraq, and at home.
It's not the "elitists" who are suffering the most from bush's policies; it is...taadaaa..."working class peope".
As Ahnuld said:
No problemo. :o)
Very well, folks, next steps:
How will Obama be able to defeat the Elephascist/Corporate Holodeck Media Smear Machine to win the election?
How will President Obama be able to defeat the Oil Lobby, the Death Gadget Thieves' Guild, and the Israel-First Lobby to end the wars?
Oh, I forgot to specify--the Thieves' Guild is the defense industry lobby.
Yes, Michael we have a problem to solve and ...... that's just one more piled on top of the REAL problems we have to solve. The problem of Hillary is a test for the party. Are you ready to move forward or not? Hillary in any capacity says not.
Sure, I'm not against her staying. Hell, John Edwards was on the ballot in WV but then he's not out there saying batshit insane craziness about numbers that cannot add up in any ethical way either. He's not out there proposing to run the same exact strategy that lost us the general the last two times. So your "she can get us states he can't get on his own" is a falacy. Its a new map, a fresh map with Obama.... at least it WOULD be without buzzkill hillaryco crowing insanity.
On June 3rd she MUST go away. She must throw all her supporters behind the NEW way forward and get her ass back to the senate and stay there with dodd, biden, kerry and such. Must happen like that or we will be sucked into the undertow..... and lose.
She's really got to stop with the crazy numbers fantasy eletion game now though. It just makes us look bad as a party. That's not tenacity, that's stupidity.
Hillary Clinton's speech last night was relatively conciliatory while maintaining the illusion of possibility for her supporters that she will win.
Have we all not had quite enough of "leaders" who do nothing but maintain illusions? I sure as hell have. This is why she has to stfu. Are her supporters so far gone that they cannot see through this "maintaining" of "illusions"..... again? Please. It demeans every one of her supporters to run this game on them. :-|
Will the oil companies be just as happy with President Obama as with President McSame?
If not, then they could easily afford to sell their products at a discount for a few months in order to keep the public from getting sufficiently disgruntled about gasoline prices.
MJ, I really don't want her to stfu, she's raised the issues that she has, and if she's not going to recant them then she should play them out.
We should stop trying to control her and let her find a way to salvage some credibility or destroy herself.
See michael.... you've nailed it right there. Everything, every issue you speak of, is about hillary clinton. She has already destroyed herself, the clinton legacy, and now working on the Democratic party.
The only issues she's trying to decide is where to set up the kool aid manufacturing plant. Because every word out of her mouth at this point regarding the "winning" numbers or strategy is just that... kool aid.
Unless she's saying "Look we've spent the last years rigging our own election machines in these pubbie defined states and that's the reason I can say we can win with same tired old pubbie defined maps and charts" then she is part of the snatching defeat from the jaws of victory plan.
I don't care one wit about hillary's history book or her credibilty. She's written it herself for the last year and three weeks won't change that.
I think you raise some good ideas on what the hillary problem really is though. Its not about her being "tough", its about US being tough enough to let them go, to make them go. Harder for some folks but we have to do it, and I think we can. :-)
Myrtle June,
You and me, girl!
YOU. SAID. IT.
And rehctaw (WTF?):
Good one!
Nobody's ever said the Clone-tons lack talent.
Dg, some fine writing being done on this blog.
Suzan
Welcome to Pottersville
____________________________
Already, the clintons are only counting his votes as 2/3 of a vote so hey, let's just completley destroy the Democratic party by buying into ONE premise these batshit crazy clintons put forth.
"Because I waaaaannnnnnnaaaaaa" is not a reason to make someone vp.
$20M in debt is a great reason not to. I mean she had this freaking "wrapped up" in the media and her mind ..... then came the pesky little voters.
I, and most other people need this to be over. The one big long "meee meee meeee" fit she's been throwing is fucking exhausting! Just fucking exhausting. Who would sign her up for 4 more years of the "Hillary for President" campaign? Feh.
The Democrats had better get about shutting this down in no uncertain terms, like by Friday, before we lose all the voters who are ready to stick needles in their eyes from the insanity talk coming out of the clintons' campaign. gaaaaaaaaagh.
Another FINE post, Driftglass!
.... she should also stfu about the fantasy election numbers she's going on about. She is statinng over and over the map from 200/2004 and we got a new ball game here ONLY if the clintons are not involved.
And I think it would be far better for the Dems to stand up and just say no. Their supporters will either vote for Obama or they won't. After 8 years of this namby pamby whiney assed titty baby president and 2 of the same crap from congress, I'm in no mood, and I don't think most of country is either, for negotiating our position of power away to appease people who really need to be jolted out of their perpetual victimness.
Do I care about them? I don't care about anyone who doesn't get bush/clinton/bush/clinton is more of the same and dynastys of any stripe are unAmerican. Mrs. Bill Clinton should have gotten that and if she weren't so fucking selfish, she might have.
We have GOT to move along here. The less baggage the better. Got to.
Whooooeeeee!!!
John Edwards just endorsed Obama!!!
Hot Damn; startin' to look like a bandwagon to me! :o)
And earlier, 3 former heads of that evil, librul, organization, the Securities and Exchange Commission, endorsed Obama. (One of them was appointed by...Bubba!)
It gets better :o) :
NARAL, the pro-choice women's group that has supported Hillary Clinton ALL OF HER POLITICAL LIFE, this afternoon, endorsed Obama.
Somewhere along in there, is the 8-ball in the side pocket. :o)
Having just watched John Edwards endorsement speech, I really hope he is the VP.
when you ppl say things like " we don't need those votes " , it makes the ppl who voted and have yet to vote feel like UNAMERICAN , unimportant pieces of SHIT ...... thanks !!!
The last time the Democrats chose a member of the DLC as VP candidate (Joe Lieberman), he was instrumental in giving Florida and the election to Bush/Cheney.
If Hillary is nominated as Vice President and the election is close, you can depend on Bill&Hill selling us out.
No, no, no. The DLC is a fifth column in the Democratic Party. They have enabled the worst Republican excesses. They deserve NOTHING.
Anon; at this point, I'm not saying, flat-out, that we don't need them, but it's getting to the point that, as Hillary retreats farther into the peckerhead bunker, a lot of us are ready to say "to hell with you and your entitled supporters". None of the people supporting Obama told her to support the war, or the Keil-Lieberman amendment, or the flag-burning amdendment.
None of us think that John McCain is good commander in chief material.
Obama hasn't used fearmongering straight out of the republican playbook against her, the way she has against him.
She (with bill's help) opened up the racism can of worms, as she sucked up to OUR mouth-breathers.
Are we required to be saints?
Do we owe she and her supporters to be some kind of Obama-Ghandis, to put up with all of this and pretend that she's still in good standing with our view of what are fair democratic campaign practices?
No.
She's $20 million dollars in debt, and that's because her support has been a mile wide and an inch deep. As Myrtle June said; at this point it's not about "tenacity"; it's about stupidity. And ego, I'd add.
Let her mend these fences; she's the one who did most of the destruction.
White people won't vote for Obama in the GE. Welcome, President McBush.
Merlallen, that ain't quite finished so lemme help ya.
An insignificant amount of White, Racist, Misogynist, Condederate Die Hards Bitter About The War, Who Lament The Old South, won't vote for a black man.
We'll win, mightily, without that support.
And then, this country gets back to a point where people everywhere will AGAIN be proud to shout down that useless and hateful 23%. Let them find their OWN island state and leave us alone. This is NOT their country.
Drifty, great metaphor. Simply great.
And comments? Wow. You guys are GOOD!!
I agree with the comment about the comments being quality.
Folks are really sharpening up their stuff in here, and I read more n a FEW of you folks elsewhere, so my hat off:
Tanbark. Wow, you've grown. You were good, now yer better!
Myrtle June-your voice is MUCH stronger and louder!! WOW!! *G*
Rehctaw-dude, love your stuff at your place, but in here it's as good as ever!!!
Susan Computer Wizard-don't know much of your stuff, but man, I sure like what I see in here!
Malacandra-have just recently seen your stuff. Whoa!!
BlueGal-always. Thanks for all you do in the blogosphere. Yer like, everywhere . . . ;-)
Ivory Bill-I just don't know what to think, hoss, but, it's always probing and to the point!!!
Michael-at least you were sensible in yer opposition to things. You have talent it seems!
So, Drifty. I think a certain Gilliard would be DAMNED proud of what you've helped to build in here.
Nice work, hoss.
Now, we got a future to take back and 30 years of hateful shit to purge like a bad meal from a roach coach that needs deep flushing.
Can't think of ANY way Edwards is NOT the VEEP at this time. Seems they declared it today.
Great ticket. More house and senate seats for us, too, in the general, thanks to that ticket, and to BlueAmerica and Howie K-
I haven't been this hopeful in decades.
Bring it on.
Harumph.
merlallen - I'm a white people. I voted for Obama. That should be enough to fuck up your truth table. feh.
Suzan - Thanks and back atcha! Great thread on everyone's part.
Driftglass rocks!!! ;-)
I got three words for y'all's November confidence:
"DEWEY DEFEATS TRUMAN"
Are we sure we want Edwards as VP? Fine fellow, qualified, and all that, but:
Who's the Attorney General then? Who else has the ability to go after malefactors of great wealth and power? And, of course, who else will do it?
Ivory Bill, who seems recently to have taken a turn toward defeatism, which I think regrettable but certainly can't refute, asks a couple of highly relevant questions:
"How will Obama be able to defeat the Elephascist/Corporate Holodeck Media Smear Machine to win the election?"
Well, my plan may not have all the coherence and rigor of the Underpants Gnomes' plan, but I can start the list:
1. Oppose them.
2. Not so sure here, but at this point we're already a step ahead of the Clinton campaign. Maybe this this step is to enfranchise a whole lot of new voters and raise lots of money from non-corporate sources.
3. I need to cheat and count that as items 2 and 3. Anyway, each of these is yet another step beyond Clinton's approach.
"How will President Obama be able to defeat the Oil Lobby, the Death Gadget Thieves' Guild, and the Israel-First Lobby to end the wars?"
1, 2, 3: The first points are, as we said in the days I was doing corporate filings, incorporated by reference.
4 or something: This one involves some sort of getting masses of public support.
Reference point: FDR. Who of course did NOT eliminate those evils but to some extent perpetuated them. It's a very imperfect world. But I like FDR a whole lot better than the alternative.
Starting point: Support for the Republicans running in the 20-percents.
Goal: Non-doom. Or, if you like: A republic, if you can keep it. (h/t to B. Franklin)
Obama isn't going to defeat the Elephascist MSM, we are. "Yes we can" is not the same old rhetoric, it lacks a personal pronoun.
Edwards is a great campaigner, there's no better choice for VP. As for AG, that isn't a decision that needs to be made right away and of course can theoretically wait until after November.
Still, if we're picking our favorites, I'd consider someone like John Conyers.
Dear Porlock: Ivory Bill's defeatism is affecting his brain and his historical accuracy.
Unlike Thomas Dewey, Barack Obama is both intelligent and articulate.
He, more than anyone else, is responsible for the huge voter increase in democratic turnouts in the primary contests.
He has broken all fundraising records, and he's done it with small donations.
He's also going to be running against a candidate who is NOT intelligent and articulate, and who IS, politically speaking, a growth on george bush's ass.
Call your next case.
Nice one, TB,
Couldn't have been more pithy myself.
Suzan
Welcome to Pottersville
who IS, politically speaking, a growth on george bush's ass.
"As Myrtle June said; at this point it's not about "tenacity"; it's about stupidity. And ego, I'd add."
It's also about setting herself up for 2012. If, by some miracle (i.e. massive cheating and/or theft on the Rethugs' part, with the able assistance of the "liberal" media) Old Man McStain manages to snatch the White House this year, Hillary's last real chance at the brass ring will be in the next election. (She's not exactly a spring chicken herself, y'know.) Viewed in that light, it's very much in her interests to see McCain win this year.
Jeffrey St. Clair of Counterpunch wrote an editorial outlining this very scenario several weeks ago. He thinks that if McCain does win, the rotten old bastard has all the makings of a one-term President if ever there was one. A perfect template for President Clinton II come 2012. I have to say, I thought St. Clair made a convincing case.
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