Pretty much every "debate" I have ever had with any Conservative/Republican/Teabagger/Whatever has gone like so.
They jump right in with some bullshit conspiracy they've heard on Fox or from some wingut superspreader site.
I take 90 seconds to debunk it.
They escalate (Yeah, well, whatabout...) with even stupider conspiracy bullshit they've heard on Fox or from some wingut superspreader site.
I take 90 seconds to debunk it.
They sidestep with some variation on, "Well...Liberals do the same thing only worse!"
I take 90 seconds to deconstruct it.
They change the subject.
Rinse and repeat.
Year after year.
Decade after decade.
Because there is alway the next lie. And the one after that. And the one after that. And even if you make a bundle out of all the lies they've touted in the past week/month/year and ask, quite sincerely, "Why do you keep going back to the same liars who lied to you last time?" the answer is always the same.
"Well...Liberals do the same thing only worse!"
Which is why this Judd Legum Project made me laugh and laugh,
1. I believe it's ESSENTIAL to deeply engage with people who disagree with you politically
— Judd Legum (@JuddLegum) April 12, 2022
It's the only way to build mutual understanding and really test your own views.
But it doesn't happen much these days.
So I have an idea to get started and I need your help
So if you want to break out the beanbag chairs and rap with 'em about Big Stuff, well that's great. More power to you. But have you noticed that it is always someone from the Left doing the outreach? Always the Left that is expected to make concessions for the Greater Good? Always someone on the Left who thinks we need a Big Sit-Down with people who define themselves by how much they despise us, while it's always the rustic opinions of Trump goofs in diners which major media outlets like the Washington Post and The New York Times can never seem to get enough of?
Until then...
8 comments:
Exactly this. When 911 happened I was working for a big super megauber corporation and suffice to say my beliefs about going to war were unappreciated in my department so I tried to keep a lid on expressing those ideas which felt stifling but I was willing to talk to clearly reactionary republican types if they engaged me with respect. Conversations didn't go anywhere but it still felt somewhat possible to have a dialogue over issues under the right circumstances. The Obama years put an end to reasonable conversations but I would still engage and go toe to toe over issues even though the crazy was rising. I got the feeling I could still change a mind or two with facts/data/truth. Didn't really happen but hope sprung eternal. Since Trump I now realize I wasted a lot of time with these people. I hate to be fatalist because I'm generally glass half full but I think we're well past the point where we can save ourselves. This country is on it's final rotations around a flushing toilet. I do believe we'll find a way through and move forward for the better at some point but for now the die is cast. It's just sad to me.
I would very much like to see an actual video of Mr. Legum's attempt to reach out to a real corn-fed, Fox News quotin' Midwestern MAGA.
This sort of poke - "we need to talk to people on the other ideological side" - is IMO a reflection of one of the particular blindnesses that afflict the mainstream media outlets. When Democrats can't pass a bill, it is ALWAYS the fault of Democrats. Unified Republican opposition, if mentioned at all, is given perhaps a sentence or two, and the article will even act as an apologist, citing the bullshit arguments Republicans give for their opposition as if those are Serious Things To Be Considered, and not threadbare excuses that logical evaluation typically shreds in seconds.
Shorter above: Democrats and liberals are ALWAYS held accountable for progress and growth, or the failure to accomplish those things. Republicans are NEVER held accountable for their systemic sabotage of the system - i.e. the reason progress and growth DON'T happen.
And that is why (one of the whys) Jason's comment in this thread is precisely correct: America as we believed her to be has died. I believe she died quite a long time ago, perhaps never even truly lived - but the gangrene became horrifically visible, unignorable on the evening of 11/8/2016. Up until then, hope wavered, however faint.
I hope Jason is also correct that a better future will emerge. FWIW, I don't think Trump will be elected again in 2024 (though I'm not prepared to bet money on that), but the hate Wurlitzer will live on. As long as that continues, so too shall the awfulness.
A US version of Volksverhetzung laws are long overdue. Sacrilege of course - frozen peaches and all that - but I see that as the only achievable solution.
Thanks DG.
Murc's Law is a harsh and unforgiving mistress for pundits.
"...it's ESSENTIAL to deeply engage with people who disagree with you politically"
This might be true if both sides were engaged in trying to learn what the truth was. Sad to say, the liberal side of the discussion is trying to do that, but the conservative side is dedicated to nothing but stirring up hatred, greed, a lust for violence, and any other base emotion they can, so people vote on the basis of these miserable mental states, rather than facts. There is no "engaging" with people whose sole interest is in stoking themselves up until they are out of control enough to kill you.
The most consistent proof that Both Sides® is bullshit is the fact that it's only ever deployed in defense of Republicans.
I live in an 85% White, 93% Biden part of Wisconsin. That’s a whole lot more unique than wherever those 8 “peaked in high school” meatballs are from. Why don’t we ever get profiled?
You can’t talk to people who are incapable of listening and aren’t adult enough to self-reflect. They’re not worth the time or effort, and all you can do is to show others how dumb/weak they are, so others in CletusTown don’t think that Cletus knows what he’s talking about.
As you mentioned, this is a two-way street, yet Beltway media always grades GOPs in a massive curve. It’s gotta end.
I live in an 85% White, 93% Biden part of Wisconsin. That’s a whole lot more unique than wherever those 8 “peaked in high school” meatballs are from. Why don’t we ever get profiled?
You can’t talk to people who are incapable of listening and aren’t adult enough to self-reflect. They’re not worth the time or effort, and all you can do is to show others how dumb/weak they are, so others in CletusTown don’t think that Cletus knows what he’s talking about.
As you mentioned, this is a two-way street, yet Beltway media always grades GOPs in a massive curve. It’s gotta end.
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