Monday, August 19, 2013

Rashomon At Heathrow

Here is how two different news organizations told the same story: the detention of Glenn Greenwald's partner, David Miranda*, for nine hours in the UK and the confiscation of his electronics equipment.

The Guardian's Glenn Greenwald speculates on the motivation for this action and then reports his own speculation as fact:
Detaining my partner: a failed attempt at intimidation
The detention of my partner, David Miranda, by UK authorities will have the opposite effect of the one intended
...
Worse, they kept David detained right up until the last minute: for the full 9 hours, something they very rarely do. Only at the last minute did they finally release him. We spent all day - as every hour passed - worried that he would be arrested and charged under a terrorism statute. This was obviously designed to send a message of intimidation to those of us working journalistically on reporting on the NSA and its British counterpart, the GCHQ.

Before letting him go, they seized numerous possessions of his, including his laptop, his cellphone, various video game consoles, DVDs, USB sticks, and other materials. They did not say when they would return any of it, or if they would.

This is obviously a rather profound escalation of their attacks on the news-gathering process and journalism. It's bad enough to prosecute and imprison sources. It's worse still to imprison journalists who report the truth. But to start detaining the family members and loved ones of journalists is simply despotic. Even the Mafia had ethical rules against targeting the family members of people they felt threatened by. But the UK puppets and their owners in the US national security state obviously are unconstrained by even those minimal scruples.
...
Having heard enough, Andrew Sullivan jumps right in with both feet, declaring that this was nothing more than a "brute psychological intimidation of the press, by attacking their families" and a warning to " any journalist passing through London’s Heathrow":
A disclosure upfront: I have met David Miranda as part of a my friendship with Glenn Greenwald. The thought of his being detained by the British police for nine hours because his partner embarrassed the American government really sickens me at a gut level. I immediately think of my husband, Aaron, being detained in connection to work I have done – something that would horrify and frighten me. We should, of course, feel this empathy with people we have never known – but the realization is all the more gob-smacking when it comes so close to home.
...

David was detained for nine hours – the maximum time under the law, to the minute. He therefore falls into the 3 percent of interviewees particularly, one assumes, likely to be linked to terrorist organizations. My obvious question is: what could possibly lead the British security services to suspect David of such ties to terror groups?

I have seen nothing anywhere that could even connect his spouse to such nefarious contacts. Unless Glenn is some kind of super-al-Qaeda mole, he has none to my knowledge and to suspect him of any is so close to unreasonable it qualifies as absurd. The idea that David may fomenting terrorism is even more ludicrous. 
And yet they held him for three hours before informing his spouse and another six hours thereafter. I can see no reason for those extra six hours (or for that matter the entire nine hours) than brute psychological intimidation of the press, by attacking their families.

More to the point, although David was released, his entire digital library was confiscated – including his laptop and phone. So any journalist passing through London’s Heathrow has now been warned: do not take any documents with you. Britain is now a police state when it comes to journalists, just like Russia is.
...
Amnesty International concurs that there could be no possible motive other than brute thuggishness for this abhorrent behavior in this press release --


UK: Detention of Guardian journalist's partner at Heathrow unlawful and unwarranted 
A Guardian newspaper journalist's partner detained today while in transit at a London airport is clearly a victim of unwarranted revenge tactics, targeted for no more than who he is married to, Amnesty International said today.   
-- which appears to be an alternate version of this press release in which Amnesty International makes Mr. Miranda an employee of the Guardian:
UK: DETENTION OF GUARDIAN EMPLOYEE AT HEATHROW UNLAWFUL AND UNWARRANTED 
A Guardian newspaper employee detained today while in transit at a London airport is clearly a victim of unwarranted revenge tactics, targeted for no more than who he is married to, Amnesty International said today.    
David Michael Miranda is married to Glenn Greenwald, the Guardian journalist who analyzed and published information on documents disclosing sweeping, systematic and unlawful surveillance by the US government. These documents were released by Edward Snowden. 
And the National Union of Journalists:
"Miranda had been used as a go-between by Greenwald and film-maker Laura Poitras, in Berlin, who had been working with him on the information supplied by Edward Snowden. This material has now been confiscated. Journalists no longer feel safe exchanging even encrypted messages by email and now it seems they are not safe when they resort to face-to-face meetings."
The Guardian again:
We must assume the Americans asked the British government to nab him, shake him down and take his personal effects.
Really?  Must we assume that?

OK.

The Spectator: 
The detention of David Miranda at Heathrow is a clarifying moment that reveals how far Britain has changed for the worse. Nearly everyone suspects the Met held Miranda on trumped up charges because the police, at the behest of the Americans, wanted to intimidate Miranda’s partner Glenn Greenwald, the conduit of Edward Snowden’s revelations, and find out whether more embarrassing information is on Greenwald’s laptop.
Really?  Nearly everyone suspects that?

Ah well.

Human Rights Watch:
“It’s incredible that Miranda was considered to be a terrorist suspect,” said David Mepham, UK director at Human Rights Watch. “On the contrary, his detention looks intended to intimidate Greenwald and other journalists who report on surveillance abuses.”
...
Greenwald said officials questioned Miranda about Greenwald’s extensive reporting on surveillance by the United States National Security Agency (NSA). He said Miranda was in transit and traveling to his home in Brazil after a week in Berlin, where he had stayed with Greenwald’s journalistic partner on the NSA story, Laura Poitras. The Guardian newspaper said it paid for Miranda’s trip.
And the Guardian once again:
As for Miranda, his only offence seems to have been to be part of his family. Harassing the family of those who have upset authority is the most obscene form of state terrorism.
But either way, case closed and over and done, right?  

Well, almost over and done.

Mr. Greenwald goes on to be quoted in the New York Times as follows:
“This is obviously a serious, radical escalation of what they are doing. He is my partner. He is not even a journalist.”
Mr. Greenwald is right: his partner is not a journalist. Ergo his partner would not enjoy any of the journalistic protections that Mr. Greenwald enjoys should his partner have been, say, muling stolen US government secrets across various international borders at Mr. Greenwald's behest.

Which may explain why at no point in this latest version of his by-now-standard "Worse Than..." boilerplate (Worse Than The Mafia!) does Mr. Greenwald ever bother to mention the actual mission which non-journalist David Miranda was actually paid by The Guardian to perform.

The New York Times, in the other hand, does bother to mention it:
...
Mr. Miranda was in Berlin to deliver documents related to Mr. Greenwald’s investigation into government surveillance to Ms. Poitras, Mr. Greenwald said. Ms. Poitras, in turn, gave Mr. Miranda different documents to pass to Mr. Greenwald. Those documents, which were stored on encrypted thumb drives, were confiscated by airport security, Mr. Greenwald said. All of the documents came from the trove of materials provided to the two journalists by Mr. Snowden. The British authorities seized all of his electronic media — including video games, DVDs and data storage devices — and did not return them, Mr. Greenwald said.
...
Maybe two months of seeing dribs and drabs of this stuff being  teased and released like so many summer blockbusters might have gotten people used to seeing government secrets splashed all over the world's headlines, but the actual McGuffin at the center of it all are actual files which contain tens of thousands of stolen documents.  

Stolen documents the possession of which it is still very much against the law for anyone who is not a journalist.

And not just any stolen, US government intelligence secrets, but stolen, US government intelligence secrets that are so sensitive and potentially destructive that Mr. Greenwald himself has described them as becoming:
 United States' "worst nightmare" if revealed...
and containing:
...enough information to cause harm to the U.S. government in a single minute than any other person has ever had...
In fact, the stolen US government security secrets which Mr. Miranda was couriering across Europe are potentially so much more devastating to the United States than anything that has ever happened that, in Mr. Greenwald's words:
"The U.S. government should be on its knees every day begging that nothing happen to Snowden, because if something does happen to him, all the information will be revealed and it could be its worst nightmare."
Since I am not up on British law I have no idea if it what the British government did at Heathrow was or was not technically illegal, but it certainly was spiteful and threatening. 

But it is also true that if non-journalist David Miranda was detained because he was couriering some portion of a trove of incredibly dangerous, stolen US intelligence secrets across international borders at Mr. Greenwald's behest, Mr. Greenwald owed it to his readers to include that very important fact in his reporting.

And so once again we see the problem inherent in advocacy journalism when the advocate in question continues to believe his only obligation to his readers is to share with them only those details of the story that are favorable to his cause.   

And speaking of advocacy journalism, Mr. Greenwald has now invoked kanly, vowing to use his access to those stolen US intelligence secrets to get David Cameron and his little dog too!
Glenn Greenwald, the reporter who broke the news about secret U.S. surveillance programs said the authorities who took his partner into custody at London's Heathrow Airport "are going to regret what they did." 
"I am going to write my stories a lot more aggressively now," the Guardian reporter told Brazil's Globo TV on Monday in Rio de Janeiro. 
"I am going to publish many more documents now. I am going to publish a lot about England, too, I have a lot of documents about the espionage system in England. Now my focus is going to be that as well."
... 

*(To avoid legal entanglement, in the screenplay the character of David Miranda will be renamed "Jimmy Marburyversusmadison")

39 comments:

Athenawise said...

Everyone and every entity in this sad, sordid mess is behaving badly.

But none of the behaviors or revelations shock me that much. When the Patriot Act kicked in, I knew my government (and its allies) would be watching all of us.

WaPo explored this very well three years ago in its series Top Secret America. You can look it up.

driftglass said...

Ain't that the sad and sorry truth.

Chris Andersen said...

It's hard to be sympathetic to anyone involved in this story (either Greenwald and company or the security agencies) because pretty much everyone involved is acting like an idiot.

And that includes those whose commentary on this story are colored profoundly by their pre-conceived narratives.

It's all turning into a farce which is going to burn everyone, even those whose actions stem from a well-meaning desire to actually do what is right (and that includes both defenders of Greenwald and defenders of the security agencies).

Lumpy Lang said...

Rubbish. Others are carrying out their programs more or less as advertised.

The role of Droneglass and his apologists is uniquely rotten - energeticallly promoting the agenda of the surveillance/police state while waving the (comically) false passport of 'concern for journalism'.

zombie rotten mcdonald said...

One thing I have to say about the GreenWaldoes; regardless of the content of the post, you have to admire their ability to not actually respond to it.

I suspect they read far enough to see Greenwald's name, then fire off one of several pairings of boilerplate insults.

Meanwhile, I am trying to figure out what kind of man uses his partner as a pawn, fodder for his egotistical ravings. He had no idea if his partner was ever going to be released; but he had to have a pretty good idea that he would be detained. And why not use one of the many couriers I am sure the Guardian has available? Why send your lover?

Like I said, I am trying to figure out what kind of man does that. Several words come to mind, and oddly, none of them are "journalist" nor "civil rights hero".

blader said...

On what basis can GG be considered a journalist?

If one measures him by the journalism code of ethics, except for the fact that his writing gets published by a news organization, he's not really in the ball park. I mean, I'm I a journalist if one of my rants shows up on the op-ed page of my local newspaper?

http://www.spj.org/ethicscode.asp

Pinkamena Panic said...

It should tell you all you need to know about Saint Glennie of Rio and his acolytes that this whole setup (and yes, it's a setup) is triggering responses bashing - wait for it - Prez Obama. Not the UK, not Saint Glennie of Rio's transparent attempt at whoring out his boyfriend for more fame, but the guy who they hate more than any other.

And the fact that racist LL is the first to spew the Greenrube hate speech just seals the deal. This isn't about security, it isn't about freedom, it isn't about government overreach. It's about hate.

Lumpy Lang said...

"It's about hate."

I plead guilty. I despise police state measures, as well as hypocritical rationalizations for the destruction of rights that have been won through decades of struggle by working people.

Couldn't care less if the rulers' mouthpieces for this assault are liberal or conservative.

jim said...

The stink of Kabuki is strong with this one.

Bad news for the valiant knights of the Eternal Pearlclench Brigade: Concern-trolling state surveillance is quickly turning into a patent bloody canard in a world where so many millions gleefully expose the granular details of their identity & activities online. Where's the fear of CORPORATE surveillance that has neither public scrutiny nor solid legal restraints nor even a tiny tincture of a predicate of either national security or civic duty?

Ignore the soap-opera.
Follow the money.

Unsalted Sinner said...

The one thing I never see outlined in the comments from those who think Obama's authoritarian regime is THE WORST THING EVER is the one thing I want to know. As the old Small Faces classic goes: "What'cha gonna do about it?"

I mean, you are going to do something more than just calling Driftglass names, right?

Right?

Anonymous said...

After reading this hit job on Greenwald here at Driftglass I will now deleate this blog from my list.

mahakal said...

Using your significant other as your courier is certainly a douche move. On the other hand I wouldn't expect him to report his supreme doucheness. That detail requires others to report.

Expecting any journalist, advocate or otherwise, to be impartial in their reporting on their own case and that of their significant others is expecting too much. Too much conflict of interest. If other journalists and reporters fell down on their reporting of the case, that's on them.

urbanmeemaw said...

Pinkamena Panic, Jim and Unsalted Sinner, I agree with you three 1000%. At the risk of sounding hyperbolic,this feels like an electronic lynching. But while Obama is a target, I think there are other targets as well. This whole thing makes me ill. My daily blog list is shrinking. At the first hint of emo-prog I'm done.

Lumpy Lang said...

As the old Small Faces classic goes: "What'cha gonna do about it?"

Manning, Snowden and Assange et al. have all - to their great credit - 'done something' about it... only to be imprisoned, tortured, hounded and/or slandered by Washington for their efforts to inform the public.

The (shamefaced and backhanded) support lent by Droneglass and his co-thinkers to this state criminality - in the name of 'progressive values' 'responsible journalism' etc. - is simply disgusting.

Free Bradley Manning!
U.S. Imperialism: Hands off Assange, Snowden!

Bukko Canukko said...

I'll tell you what I did about it, Unsalted. I got the hell out of the U.S. While Dick Cheney was still realPresident. And I didn't come back under Preznit Hopey. Because he's basically Bush (the First) in blackface.

I checked into DG to see how the Obama apologists would be justifying this latest act of fascist overreach by the USSA SSekkkurity SState. (Why doesn't Apple have a "special characters font for those runic-looking lightning bolts that Hitler's murderarmy used, anyway?) I woulda gone to Balloon Juice, but there's too much animal-blegging to wade through to get to what I want to read. You and your commenters did not disappoint.

So Miranda was carrying Very Dangerous Secrets. And he Broke The Law. And Glenn Grennwald still has a Very Big Ego. So do Julian Assange and Edward Snowden. And that makes them Bad, Bad People.Fascinating, the trivialities that you on the political left -- my side -- can use to rationalize your support for authoritarian overreach. I also saw it at play in the comments with what Charles Pierce wrote about this. Obots do not disappoint.

Suppose this was George Bush the Lesser forcing down the airplane of the Bolivian president, or cancelling a meeting with Putin in a "1980 Olympics" kinda snit, or Kafka-scating the goods of a gay reporter's lover at border security? (But Greenwald's not a journalist, eh? Not unless the American government and corporations SAY he is, right?) You'd be howling!

As you will when futurePresident Christie does shit like this. Only he'll be doing it worse, and within the borders of the USS. When it comes, remember your justifications of President Kinder, Hopelier. Because they'll be just as logically applicable.

Only, you won't. Because it's all about "my team vs. yours." Enjoy the Tyranny Lite that your Team Blue is bringing down on the heads of the Some. It's paving the path to hell for the shitstorm that's going to rain down on the heads of the All under the next Maximum Leader. I intend to keep enjoying myself in Canada and Australia -- also adjuncts to the Amerikkkan SSecurity Empire, following its marching orders like the UK. But I'd rather live as a flea on a frog's ass than in the mange of the Big Cerberus. Plus, when it all falls apart -- this decade! -- the forces of Lawful Authority -- the Law passed last month SAYS it's OK for us to shoot the rabble! -- will be killing less of the citizenry there than it will in the Land Of Freedom.

Good luck! You'll need it!

JerryB said...

Twitter was speculating that GG set it up himself for publicity. The world is so screwed up right now nothing seems implausible.

Anonymous said...

Do you even believe that, Mahakal?

While I do agree that we cannot expect perfect impartiality from any journalist, there is so much real estate between "impartial" and "does not omit critical details from his stories to protect his preferred narrative".

-- Nonny Mouse

Anonymous said...

Zombie,

It is a bit of a rush to judgment assuming that Greenwald is using his boyfriend. The guy is younger, true, but he may be a true believer himself. If Miranda was aware of the risks, an adult, and willing, then I won't lay the outcome on Greenwald.

That said, the fact that neither Glenn nor his employer thought to mention that Miranda was detained while committing a crime under their employ is pretty fucked up. It is so ironic that we spend so much time explaining why we don't automatically give GG the benefit of the doubt when he leaps to conclusions and makes assertions.

-- Nonny Mouse

Lumpy Lang said...

"neither Glenn nor his employer thought to mention that Miranda was detained while committing a crime under their employ"

Right. The 'crime' of aiding and abetting an act of journalism.

Pinkamena Panic said...

Oh goody, and now Fucko McBothsides is back to shit all over things. You're already dealing with a zombie horde (no offense, zrm) and HERE COME THE CREEPERS! (If you don't get this, ask your kids/grandkids)

Some days it seems better to stand there and let it happen. Today's one of those days.

Robert L Bell said...

"What'cha gonna do about it?"

If you are one of the hysterial ninnies over at dailykos.com, you can fulfill your citizen's obligation by running around breathlessly accusing everyone you meet of being a paid NSA disruptor troll. They have been very good at that sort of thing.

n1ck said...

The funny thing is that a lot of the trolls here think this article is proof that Droneglass and his liberal fascist octopi love them some security state.

I'd love nothing more than to re-draft the Constitution of the US since it has been anachronistic since its first printing. I'd love to destroy the CIA, cut back the military to some nukes and a small full-time force, and become the world's largest socialist hellhole with high speed rail, and all the other functioning infrastructure that socialist hell brings with it.

Thing is, I don't think Obama is the Devil, and I don't think Glenn Greenwald's shit smells like a honeysuckle.

So now I obviously support Drone Terrorism, torture, and an Orwellian police state where no one is ever really free.

You trolls are hilarious.

Keep it up!

Anonymous said...

Not one of the commenters here has addressed the central question: Will it be chaumas, or chaumurky?

Anonymous said...

I’m not interested in GG. I AM interested in the abuses and over-reach of our government. Driftglass, you insist on going on and on about GG, while barely touching the ongoing NSA et al. outrage being perpetrated by all three branches of our “just trust us” government -- a situation that grows more FUBAR by the day, with enormous repercussions around the world.

I read GG at Salon for years (and Atrios didn't call him "Glenzilla" for nothing), and I've occasionally taken his tendency towards the strident with a grain of salt. As I also do with Driftglass. I'd advise Driftglass to spend some quality time ripping most of the rest of the MSM for sitting there probing their nasal cavities while the biggest story of the decade unfolds.

Anonymous said...

"..Mr. Greenwald himself has described them as becoming:
United States' "worst nightmare" if revealed..."

I'm pretty sure he was talking about the US government, and not the United States.

Anonymous said...

Anne Nonamus:

"After reading this hit job on Greenwald here at Driftglass I will now deleate this blog from my list."

So a "hit job" is what we call speaking the truth?

You are dismissed.

Anonymous said...

Yes, a crime, Lumpy. Thank you for admitting that.

-- Nonny Mouse

Anonymous said...

n1ck,

I'm right there with you.

-- Nonny Mouse

Frank Stone said...

Seems to me the headline for this story should be:

GREENWALD SETS UP PARTNER TO BE DETAINED AND INTERROGATED, VOWS REVENGE FOR DETENTION AND INTERROGATION OF PARTNER

Unknown said...

After having my doubts about Greenwald and his cult, I'm now firmly with them.

The detention of Greenwald's husband was over-the-top. Why? Either he was committing a crime or he wasn't. Either Mr. Miranda was couriering contraband documents or he wasn't. The British authorities could have arrested him, even on suspicion. The fact that they questioned the man for nine hours and STILL could not find any reason to arrest him means that they were harassing him.

Greenwald's drama-queen antics irritate me to no end. I have had serious Twitter arguments with this man, who once compared Obama followers to cult members. Yet Glenn, back when he had time, always considered my arguments and never disparaged me nor blocked me on Twitter.

The irritation that Greenwald causes no way justifies the nine hour detention of Miranda (which did not result in a longer detention or arrest). Miranda was detained under a terrorism law. He may not be a journalist, but he certainly is no terrorist!

Unlike your fans and you, Driftglass, fellow Obama supporters were not kind to me when I stated my opinion on Twitter. My opinion was that, although I frequently feel ambivalent and often downright negative about GG, I believed that the detention of Miranda FOR 9 HOURS was government excess. For merely expressing my humble opinion, one "Crystal" not only blocked me on Twitter (which is fine), SHE HAD ME SUSPENDED ON TWITTER FOR DAYS due to harassment.

I only had one Twitter encounter with her, during which I disputed her claim that GG was a supporter of Stop and Frisk in New York City (which I am almost certain is WRONG). Before I was suspended, Crystal called me "an Ayn Rand-loving b*tch", which couldn't be further from the truth.

It was then I began to agree with Glenn that there are some terrible Obama cultists, yea, even some who want him to serve a third term. I like POTUS fine, except I know he's not perfect, and I'm not a true-believer in anyone!

Wait...I'm not finished. A gentleman named Jeremy said that he hoped that Glenn stayed in Brazil (fine) and died of AIDS (bigoted). Mr. Jeremy also called Greenwald a "filthy faggot." Censorship and homophobia are not qualities I expect to find in my fellow Democrats, but here they were sounding like dim-witted Teahadi. Another Obama right or wrong character blocked me when I said that "I neither am an Obot, a Greenbot, or a Snowbot." He said only a Teabagger would use the word Obot, something I used in jest. An examination of this fellow's timeline revealed that while he loved PBO, he loathed HRC, and to the end, he used the foulest of misogynist terms to deride her!

In short, while Greewald has said some horrible things about our President, and Snowden has expressed frightful enthusiasm for the Pauls, neither have exhibited a shred of racism, misogyny or homophobia, unlike many Greenwald haters. This whole experience has been disillusioning for this liberal, who has never received this treatment from Tea Partiers, libertarians, Muslim Brotherhood and even Al Quaida members she has communicated with on Twitter.

Anonymous said...

Unknown,

Jesus Christ. Well, I'm sorry you had such a bad experience talking about these issues online. Many of us have. The internet is populated by assholes.

But if you're going to join the Greenwald cult - as you call them yourself - do so because you believe in the merits of GG's arguments, not because people on the other side were mean to you. I only say this because you'll find out the Glennbots are just as intolerant of the Obots, they just have a different set of preferred slurs. If you are bothered by taking unwarranted abuse, you'll find their company agreeable up until you have a single divergent opinion.

My own opinion, and the reason I'm not in either camp (Glenn/Obama-bot), is that everyone is behaving quite badly.

The fact that Miranda was detained and searched is not shocking. The fact that he was held for 9 hours without charges *is*. A fine example of how anti-terror laws have gone too far and how they will be abused.

That said, that Greenwald didn't think to mention what Miranda was doing when he was initially detained is nakedly dishonest. If the UK authorities had legitimate, confirmed cause for suspicion then Greenwald's assertion that this was all arbitrary is doubtful. I have so little patience for people who want to lie to me for their cause, no matter how noble.

So by all means, wash your hands of the cretins who offended you, but don't jump in anyone's "camp". With the personalities involved in this story, skepticism is far more useful than tribal loyalty anyhow.

-- Nonny Mouse

Unsalted Sinner said...

The answers to my question seems to be:

a) "I can't do anything, because Obama would throw me in jail"; and
b) "I've already done my bit by leaving the country."

See, this is why I don't find your outrage very compelling. If things ever do change, I suspect it will be because of the people who didn't take their ball and go home, but who kept working within the Democratic party, trying to nudge it in the right direction.

Oh, and if you burn your American passport and leave the US, keep in mind that there are no limits on the NSA's surveillance when it comes to us foreigners. We're always fair game.

zombie rotten mcdonald said...

It seems a bit unclear why Unknown would bring their very justified irritation at a number of Twitter assholes to an unrelated blog.

Pinkamena Panic said...

Unknown, one needs only to look at comments on this very site to see the base, disgusting hatred of Greenwald fanatics. You are either a troll or a Greenrube who is putting on a public flounce away from us filthy "Obots" as something of an auto-da-fe. Either way, your concerns have shit-all to do with this site and therefore aren't welcome.

Nonny, I'd advise against both-sidesing on this site, no matter your intentions. It isn't received well. And trying to equivocate is definitely not a good plan. The webmaster here is, after all, someone whose very essence lies in smacking around people whose whole livelihoods depend on lame attempts to equivocate the disgusting, reprehensible actions of the entire Conservative movement to anything and liberal anywhere ever had done that might be slightly bad. That you seem to think your arguments don't rise - or fall- to that level is cute, but absurd. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Anonymous said...

Pinkamena,

I will take Unknown's story at face value if I feel like it. She gets credit from me for being polite and non-accusatory. Notice she's telling us what happened to her, not saying that we are the same as those people who treated her poorly. You are free to think what you will.

As for your hilarious attempt to shame me, please pull my other leg.

Driftglass will rebut me himself if he thinks I'm trading in unfairly symmetrical generalizations. I doubt he will in this case because my observation about people with no grace and hostility to contrary opinions existing in all political tribes is incredibly banal. Also I was not commenting at all about the variation in dishonesty across the left-right divide.

I notice you have nothing to say about my assertion itself: that assholes exist on all sides of any contentious debate. You only dispute that I have any business saying it here. Given the context of this discussion, I find your lack of self-awareness hilarious.

-- Nonny Mouse

zombie rotten mcdonald said...

Pinka, I have to say that Unknown really hasn't done anything to deserve being lumped in with the GreenWaldo Troll Squad. Like I said up above, I am curious why you would bring a Twitter Battle to this particular completely unrelated blog, but the ways of the Internarfles are strange indeed.

I really don't see any reason to doubt their story, at least without more interaction. But for now, I confess I am with the Mouser and that I give them the benefit of the doubt.

Trey Jackson said...

This is what I don't understand about driftlgass (and via the podcast, bluegirl) -

Why on earth spend so much time/effort on the tabloid stories about GG?

If you have an opinion about Miranda being detained, then argue about that.

Why argue about how GG presents his argument about the detention of Miranda?

GG's article was saying that Miranda was detained as a terrorist when clearly he is not. GG jumps to the conclusion that it's intimidation. The contents of Miranda's possessions are immaterial to GG's argument (unless they were terrorist plans or weapons).

driftglass then throws a hissy fit that GG is leaving out details, is a liar and is an all around general poopy-head.

All these points are just asinine and unimportant.

driftglass - you're right, GG could use an editor with a firm hand to clean up some of his arguments (I forget where you said it, but I agree). Similarly, you, yourself, could use an editor to steer you to issues that matter.

Issues like, I don't know:

government spying on US citizens
government lying to congress
secret programs
use of drones

Where on our nation's priority list should we put "GG omitted a fact driftglass thought was important"?

Ah, there it is. It's filed under "character assassination" - something folks do when they don't like the message...


And the comments here, wow. snarky.

Who the fcsk cares if GG used his lover? Is he less of a "man" sending others to do his work? (as some commenters here insinuated) What, are y'all in middle school? Did you see what Miranda was wearing? Plaid and polka-dots together? that's the true crime here!

Lynching Obama? Nice - criticism of Obama is now an act of racism.

GG isn't a real journalist... wow, really?

driftglass said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
driftglass said...

It is true that the NSA surveillance and FISA story is an important and consequential story.

Which I point out in virtually ever post on this subject.

It is also true that Greenwald lies.
Repeatedly.
About really important things.
Lies until the lies stop serving his cause. Lies until he is forced to change his story.

He also ruthlessly slanders people who raise objections to anything he writes. Anyone who is not pure enough to serve his cause is dismissed out-of-hand as a cultist who is acting in base faith

He continues to get away with shitting all over his own, important story with lies and slander because he knows that his flying monkeys will scorch the Earth under anyone who calls him on it.

How anyone who cares about this story can possibly be cool with Mr. Greenwald repeatedly polluting it with lies and conflations and deflections and defamation and his radical political agenda is beyond me.