Thursday, June 30, 2005

Jonah’s not here, man.



What the hell? No, man, I’m Jonah.

So why not let’s piss everybody off and talk about faith.

Faith, it’s said, is the belief in things not seen.

I honestly don’t have a problem with that. Seems like a pretty benign definition, as such things go, although I prefer this: “Faith is Belief in the absence of Proof”.

Faith and Science don’t need to be enemies; they can coexist very comfortably in the same human household…just as long as they have separate bathrooms, and each have their own phone line.

Faith, however, immediately becomes a cancer when instead of “Belief in the absence of Proof”, it becomes “Belief trumps Proof.”

Down that road lies most of the horror and tragedy that has ever been done in the name of God or in the name of the State, so much so that I’d offer this up as an iron-clad Rule of Thumb: whenever a cult or a religion or a school of thought or a political party starts pushing and agenda that requires that Faith in [fill in the blank] be given pride of place over Science or Facts or Logic, you are rocketing off into a very dark realm from which it will be very hard to return.

This isn’t open for negotiation.

This isn’t “discussable”.

You want to believe that Jesus ascended bodily to Heaven, or that water got fortified into wine long before Louis Pasteur invented skid row, that’s fine by me. In the bosom of your own sacred places (not that bosoms are not, themselves, extremely sacred places :-) believe whatever the fuck you’d like. Jebus, Budda or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, if there’s no specific evidence either way, and as long as you’re not trying to use the courts and the law to force me to believe your crazy space religion, or your crazy turtle-stacking religion, I don’t care.

Who knows, but what I may actually agree with you.

But when your politics or religion requires that you jettison your critical thinking skills and believe in drivel like the Creationism, or the debatability of Global Warming, or that with a little more prayer and legislation, Terry Schiavo was gonna leap from her bed and kick-line her way across the parking lot singing “Aida”…run like Hell.

Because when your politics or religion demand that you eviscerate your own critical thinking skills – that you deliberately smash your most basic, human safety and early-warning equipment -- as a condition for membership, please know that you are absolutely in the presence of you enemies and that they are out to fuck you. So I am dead serious when I say get the hell away from them, and I don’t care who it is that’s trying to hawk this venom to you -- parent, school, church or party.

That’s one side of the dance floor.

On the other side is this.

True story.

A friend of mine (among other things) keeps the network up and healthy at a medium sized shop in the greater metro area. About a 100 people, doing their thing, and over the years he has gotten into the habit of adding a quote to the daily logon script.

Sometimes funny, sometimes inspirational, sometimes a little provocative....but this was a pretty broadminded group, and he never used any curse words or insulted anyone mother, so he had never gotten a complaint of any kind.

Until September 11th, 2002.

A year after 9/11 he posted up a quote from the Bible. This quote, from the Book of Nehemiah. A quote about the city gates being burned, and that the time comes to rally and rebuild


“Then said I to them, Ye see the distress that we are in, how Jerusalem lieth waste, and its gates are burned with fire: come, and let us build up the wall of Jerusalem...”
When he told me the story, I remember thinking that it was a pretty good quote. Apt. As appropriate someone citing the Gettysburg address in the weeks and months after 9/11.

It was up for about an hour before my pal got an email message and a visit from two of his colleagues in a state of high piss-off.

"Where," they wanted to know, "did he get off prosthelytizing people!"

WTF?

It was totally inappropriate, in their opinion, for him to "push" his religion on others in the workplace.

WTF x 2?

So he took it down -- it was a somber day, and some days there are some fights there’s no sense starting in the first place -- but it does serve to illustrate a strain of rather hysterical intolerance from which some of my brothers and sister on the Left seem to suffer. Maybe it’s a Marxist remnant, or a product of being smacked with a Bible once too often, or noting all the blood that has been let in the names of Gods throughout history.

I don’t know.

But I do know that some of us have got to stop freaking right the hell out every time Christianity gets brought into the conversation. The reaction my friend got (and that I have gotten under similarly innocuous circumstances, and maybe you have too) was way out of proportion with any offense he might have caused, so I asked him what was his usual fare.

He said he’d posted quotes by Stalin and Mao, by Budda and Machiavelli, by Twain and Churchill and Gandhi and had never, ever gotten a complaint.

Quotes by religious leaders and tyrants and floated right past, but one quote out of the Bible made two of his Lefty co-workers so furious that they came to him and insisted that he take it down.

First, this is just plain stupid. I believe I'm correct is saying that the Bible is the #1 source of literary quotations is common usage in the Western world. #2 is Shakespeare. It's how my granddaddy and probably yours learned to read. See, it’s going to get brought up a lot, so lighten up.

Second, it’s tactically idiotic to be this violently allergic to religion. And not just any religion – citations from the Bhagdiva Gita, for example, apparently raised no eyebrows – but just the one that the Carpenter’s Kid tried to get off the ground. Almost 77% of Americans are religious and identify as Christian, and telescoping in any way that we think that a belief in God is stupid or sinister is suicidal.

Third, shit, look at the numbers. Most Liberals and Progressives are religious to begin with. Most undecideds are too.

The problem is that we’re uncomfortable talking about it…so we cede the field to Evil Cocksucking Christopaths who have no problem whatsoever barking and braying and yowling their bigotry and hatred and hucksterism as a Great Big Erect Throbbing Love Of Jesus at 1,500 decibels all day, every day. And it seems that the only ones who step in and engage them on the Side of the Angels are always arguing policy and prescriptions and secularism as a free-standing virtue.

We need our Secular Warriors and I am grateful every day that they fight for us, but they will never win the battle.

Part of the reason we lose is because many of us think it's in bad taste to talk publically about God. We think it's rude or it's bad form, and we need to get the fuck over that immediately. As is true with the absolutely maddening habit among some leading Democrats to pull their punches or play "Let's All Play Nice" patty-cake with thugs who are armed with tasers and razors, if we keep dancing around by these 19th Century rules of Engagement while our opponents have no compunction about using Nukes For Jesus, we're going to keep getting whipped. Badly.

This particular theater of the culture war is one in which, regardless of how much support and air cover we give them, it’s only the boots on the ground of the millions of Liberals of Faith that will carry the day.

And it’s not like there aren’t hundreds of Progressive Christian groups out there working very hard on turning this country around, but they need our help and we all need to get Very Much More Emphatic about militating for our vision of morality, and not just policy. About articulating exactly how our principles intersect with out politics, and for a lot of Liberals, that vision is explicitly religious.

We need to take the fight right to our enemies. We desperately need our own Righteous Army of the Lord to be making some Very Fucking Loud Joyful Noise about the Christian causes of Peace and Poverty, of Tolerance and Respect for the Earth.

We need to take the Bad Guys over our Nehemiahs and give ‘em what for.

We need to boot ‘em in their Deuteronomies with the Shoes of the Fisherman until they stop behaving badly.

684 comments:

1 – 200 of 684   Newer›   Newest»
Nochurchforme said...

I usually agree with you, whole-heartedly, but here I have to disagree I have no trouble with Christianity, but I do reject in the most emphatic terms possible ORGANIZED Christianity. So little real christianity is accomplished by these orgs. and that almost totally by chance, not intent. The org wil always, ALWAYS, protect itself and its financial interests over the needs and well-being of the people who are members. it will always, ALWAYS, protect the professionals in the org. There is much more emphasis on fund-raising, than on spiritual goals, no matter what is said. When push comes to shove, the spiritual will never win.
Does anybody do less for more money than ministers in mainstream churches? The few who do produce something other than false piety and patronizing comfort only prove the rule. The real cause of the stupidity in ths country, and it is epidemic, is organized religion and the destruction that it does to the collective psyche of the country. A perfect example of the destructive effects is Bill Clinton, who loved the gutter. I believe his great mind couldn't rationalize the utter hypocracy and phoniness of his religion, with what he saw and experienced. So to, I, who have been abused in every church I have gone to: as a gay man I am astonished by gays who cling to the thought that they will ever be truly accepted no matter what the rhetoric.

sfmike said...

Driftglass: Amen. I go to a "peace vigil" every week in front of the Federal Building in San Francisco that is organized by Quakers but also includes Episcopalians and Catholics. They are really lovely people, and they could care less what anybody else is religiously.

Loveandlight said...

This reminds me of a thread over at Steve G.'s blog where some skeptics were suggesting with every bit as much braying zeal as the Christopaths outside the hostel where Terry Schiavo spent her last mortal days, that the "reality-based" elite start administering ideological purity tests to keep out people who rely on homeopathy. Another way to put that suggestion might be, "Let's start dividing the progressive movement just as it's gaining some traction so that it will exclusively reflect my angry, intolerant worldview." That kind of intolerance seems to work for the right, but since when has that ever worked for us? And even the right knows enough to put to the side disagreements over things that don't amount to very much with regard to the political goals in question. If there's anything that has sunk the left time and again, it's this insistence that everybody share the same worldview in every particular.

Disclaimer: As homeopathy is metaphysical in nature, I don't recommend it as a treatment regimen for physical afflictions. I do recommend it for treating spiritual conditions such as co-dependency and maybe even for the unhealthy need to control what other people think, feel, say, and do.

Anonymous said...

It's kinda like being a waitress working a breakfast shift. You don't want to get between a customer and their breakfast, just like you don't want to get in the way of people's religious beliefs. Liberals traditionally love the big tent. I just think we're going through a very religio-phobic phase expecially since religion was used as the excuse for Bush's last Election Day win. You're right. Everybody needs to calm down and stop telling each other what to do.

Of course, it would help if the other side went first.

If Christ were alive, he'd be a socialist and waaaay left for the crowd of people using his name as an adjective these days.

drumwolf said...

If you were to draw a parallel between today and the era in which Jesus was alive, I'd say that today's Dominionists would be our Pharisees, not the followers of Christ.

(And I always make a point of referring to Dobson, Falwell and their ilk as "Dominionists," certainly not as "Christians" and not even "Christian Right" for that matter.)

drumwolf said...

To add upon my last statement...

Even though I prefer the term "Dominionists," I've noticed that most people call these people "fundies," and that's just fine by me. Just as long as we don't call them "Christians" or "Christian" anything.

A few misguided souls on our side still occasionally refer to them as "Christians," though, and we need to stop that if we haven't already. After all, we refer to the likes of al-Qaeda or Hamas as "Islamists" or "Islamic fundamentalists/militants," not as "Muslims."

Kid Charlemagne said...

Wolfy--The Dominionists remind me of the Pharisees, too. Another good term from the Gospels would be "generation of vipers".---KC

US Blues said...

As homeopathy is metaphysical in nature, I don't recommend it as a treatment regimen for physical afflictions.

Loveandlight: I disagree with you based on my own positive experiences working with a properly trained homeopath. The key is to use it first, not as a last resort. Second, recognize that homeopathy does not eliminate symptoms, like pharma tries to do, but speeds up the healing process so you move through the disease while allowing your immune system to become more intelligent.

As for religions: by their works shall they be judged.

driftglass said...

Such a wealth of thoughtful and articulate comments. What a terrific conversation to drop in on the get the day going in the right direction.

The core of it is simply that we cannot continue to let the "faith" conversation appear to be so one-sided, and let the politics of Very Bad Men continue to use Christianity as a delivery system. Falwell and Robertson and Dobson ain't Christian, and from a strictly pragmatic POV, their ilk is most effectively counterpunched, IMHO, when you go right after their faux faith.

Nochurchforme,
I don't doubt that that has been your experience, and I'm really sorry that you have had to go thru that. My friends in HS were mostly fellow geeks, freaks, gays, and minorities (both racial and religious -- I went to WAY more Bar and Bat Mitzvahs that I went to proms :-) because the Good Protestant Majority terrorized us all equally (and usually with a smiling nod from their Devout Mom and Dad) I am, however, much the richer for the company I kept. And during my time at AME churches -- most recently when my ex and I took her ailing grandmother every week -- I was always deeply disappointed to see how overtly homophobic the subtext was.

That being said, the Administration's and their allies are coming for ALL of us, and we all need to hang together, even if the alignment looks a little peculiar sometimes. And in that context, Liberals of Faith (and there are millions of them) have a special duty to go after the poisonous Dominionist roots of our adversaries.

la said...

Perfect description from the New Testament for Dobson & Co.

"Having a form of Godliness, but denying the power thereof; from such turn away."

truthbetold said...

I had a friend in college that used to wear a t-shirt that said "Jesus is coming and is he PISSED". What amazes me about the current reading of religion, particularly a kind of faux Christianity, is the dead literal seriousness of it all. Any adult reading of the gospels shows us Jesus as someone who laughed, enjoyed a good party, didn't go to church much except to raise issues with the clergy, and teased and kidded the "disciples" unmercifully, because they constantly missed the main thing. Keeping the main thing the main thing, is that life is for living, embracing life with all of its contradictions. The human being, totally alive, using all of one's faculties, participating, enjoying, making mistakes, jumping in anyway. If that message could sink in, perhaps the kingdom that would come from that would be all that any of us could imagine.
Sorry for the sermon.

ice weasel said...

This is tough for me Drifty. Normally, I'm with you 100% right out of the gate and if not right away, I'm usually convincde through your elegant prose.

But today, while I agree with the sensible tone presented here and with the many sensible, rational and decent christians/people-of-faith, keep in mind, this war, and war it is, isnot "against" them, even though it's frequently done in their name.

This social struggle we're fighting has been framed by the most extreme fundies out there. And for every millimeter ceded to these people, one more mile of change has been made.

I cannot possibly explain how many of my conservatives acquaintances rationalizde voting for bush by saying, "heck, he's not all that crazy and at least he's not ashamed of his faith...blah...blah." Well, now they may be a little more concerned but that argument was tough to counter. We had ceded part of the secular nature of the government to "the other side" and in doing so, suddenly, we weren't just being unbiased and neutral, we were wishy-washy, faithless, agnostic.

Speaking on more personal terms, my dealing with fundies has oly reinforced this. And now these, take America by any means necessary jesus shock troops are emboldened by an administration exclaimning it has their backs. We dump tens of millions into "faith based charities" (uh, hem, churches) for what? To help further deepen the the wingnut infra-structure that already includes most of the media?

I'm not saying you're wrong, and intolerance is good. But please realize, I'm not all that appalled with the idea those two people reacted as they did, I only wish that perhaps that had handled it better.

Thanks for an always great blog.

driftglass said...

truthbetold,
but it's a nice sermon.

ice weasel,
first, thank you.
second, I think we're maybe tactically not miles and mile apart. The fundies..from a pragmatic view, fuck 'em. They're lost. They're the enemy.
Rather, what I would like to see are the Lefty Christians get as mad and as loud as the wingnuts. To defend secularism (for example) from sound theological ground. To say that NO person of faith should EVER want to hand the keys to the public square over to a particular denomination or point of view. That a meticulously neutral government is what lets religions flourish.
And so forth.
And third, thanks again :-)

ice weasel said...

And therein lies the big question for me. Even the normal christian conservatives I know, the ones who, though we disagree on major issues, still are rational, do not seem at all comfortable confronting someone like a robertson, a falwell, even a phelps. They're all, after all, serving jeebus? I wish true christian libreals would step it up a bit. But that said, I think this really has to come from the, if there is such a thing, conservative christians with a conscience. They have to be the leaders here and say, "no, you extremists do not represent me". The problem is, as I see it, those are the people absolutely buried in the middle. The ones who do tno make up their minds until they're in the polling booth, these are the people we have to count on.

I think we're lost on that little item.

But all that being said, and even though I'm the most cynical bastard on the planet, I am, most sincerely ready to greet in friendship, any rational, tolerant person of faith, who is willing to respect my beliefs as much as I respect theirs.

How's that?

Once again Drifty, thanks.

Waterhouse said...

Thanks Driftglass, I've been thinking about this very subject for a while now, and the way you summed up my own conclusions is just erie.

NoChurchForMe -
You write of organized religion "so little real Christianity is accomplished by these orgs. and that almost totally by chance, not intent."

I've got no doubt of the kind of horrible, spirit-numbing shit you must have been through in your life - but, respectfully, you are wrong here. Just a few points, and I'll keep em short (I promise.)

1. The Civil Rights movement was largely won through the efforts and sacrifice of black (and not a few white) churches. Organized? Those folks were organized in ways we liberals only dream about these days.
Few (if any) of those preachers got rich, few (if any) were in it for anything but love of their fellow man and a burning hatred of injustice.

2.Ditto the Abolition Movment (look it up if you don't believe me.)
Religion is not our enemy, and it's time we (at least some of us) stopped treating it like leprosy.
I, for one, am done ceeding 'God' to douchbags, money-changers, false prophets.

Anonymous said...

Christianity as are religions are nothing but a means to control the masses. Basing your life on nothing more than the worlds longest running mind control experiment is a fools errand. I dare any one of you out there to prove in the existence of god
or whatever name you use. oh, faith is not proof btw.
I know there are plenty of ppl out there who subscribe to one religion or another and thats cool but unfortunately to close your eyes to all the atrocities
committed in the so called name of this loving god is wrong and unfortunately most were done in the name christianity.
naming some of the few good things done by ppl in the church doesn't excuse the rest.
hope i didn't upset any one i just feel any and all expression of religion should be between u and what you believe in. yapping about it to those who don't wish to hear it is like having someone yakking loudly on a cell phone.
a very liberal atheist

deaconblues said...

I know a pastor here in a left-leaning southern town, for an establishment, historically left-leaning southern church. Most self-satisfied man I've ever met. Rich as all get-out, loved to show it off. Judgmental, uncaring, cold-blooded, devious. Emotionally absent. I worked with his family for a number of years, though not through his church. Just a blank void. Reminded me of Reverend Lovejoy. I'm amazed that they keep him on, but I guess it keeps his children from starving.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous - one point; I don't know exactly how many people Stalin sent to the gulag in the name of Communism - nor how many Hitler sent to the camps - but both Natzism and Communism were explicitley atheistic movements.

My point here is not that atheism is evil - it's that many people are sheep whether its Jesus Christ or Karl Marx they believe in.

No one's suggesting we turn ourselves into the frikin' Fallwell Party- but respecting other people's beliefs, and not being afraid to put things in
moral terms is both strategically smart and ethically correct.

Anonymous said...

I came up in the Methodist faith and had no bad experiences, but over time I've lost all notions of mysticism. That said, I'm glad to be conversant in the ideas and practices of Christianity and have no problems with attending any church. I think it's good to be able to "talk the talk" and to have the insight into where the devout are coming from. There can be political payout from it. Especially when the subject is the more "social justice" parts, i.e., the Sermon on the Mount. Also, Saul Alinsky said that when they start waving that book in your face, make 'em live up to what's in it. It helps to know what's in it.

parsec

Brian Miller said...

I love this blog (thanks to Patriotboy!), and the comments are very erudite.

I am uncomfortable telling people they "should not believe." At the same time, I agree with the posters noting the danger of ceding the public realm to expicitly religious language. Not denying that people of faith have had an important positive role in social change.

As for the old chestnut that Stalin and Mao were murderous Atheists-not really. Marxist Leninism has all the characteristics of a hardcore religion: an all-encompassing world view, saints and sinners, sacred texts, great leaders.

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